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Oculus Rift - upcoming next-gen virtual reality headset Oculus Rift - upcoming next-gen virtual reality headset

01-06-2016 , 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Get It
I can't be the only one who thinks this is way over priced.

In the same way Microsoft gave Sony the win on Xbox One vs PS4, all Sony has to do is launch their vr at like $399 or less and they insta win.
PSVR will be more expensive unless sony want to take a hit. PS4 can't handle it, so it comes with it's own APU. I don't see how that can be less than $350 worth of processing power.
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01-06-2016 , 07:55 PM
I was curious for around $400, but for $600, I don't even care anymore.
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01-06-2016 , 08:01 PM
That eye-tracking optimization is going to be huge. Can't wait to see what kind of detail they can push with it.
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01-06-2016 , 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlorc
PSVR will be more expensive unless sony want to take a hit. PS4 can't handle it, so it comes with it's own APU. I don't see how that can be less than $350 worth of processing power.
All the breakout box does is handle splitting the video to TV and some 3D/spacial audio stuff. It's not a bunch of extra processing power.
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01-06-2016 , 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlorc
PSVR will be more expensive unless sony want to take a hit. PS4 can't handle it, so it comes with it's own APU. I don't see how that can be less than $350 worth of processing power.
It would not be an abnormal line for a company to take a loss on a new tech to get as much market share as they can and establish themselves as a market leader. Not saying this will be Sony's line but it may be just have to wait.

I get that the Rift is more powerful as one can just build a badass PC and go for it, but I would argue most don't have the general want or need for a $800+ PC and a $600 add on that has basically no games right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackitos
I was curious for around $400, but for $600, I don't even care anymore.
Basically my thoughts as well. And I'm lucky enough to have a PC that could run it.
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01-06-2016 , 08:58 PM
$1000+ canadian is too big a pill to swallow. Maybe if the apps/games were out for it already, i could convince myself to buy the trigger...

Looking on ebay i see that dk2 kits are going for as low as 350 canadian: it just a bad idea to buy these?
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01-06-2016 , 11:05 PM
palmer AMA is live now, go here for his responses: https://www.reddit.com/user/palmerluckey

in his first post he apologises for the poor messaging and the setting of expectations on price, and also makes these points:

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To be perfectly clear, we don’t make money on the Rift. The Xbox controller costs us almost nothing to bundle, and people can easily resell it for profit. A lot of people wish we would sell a bundle without “useless extras” like high-end audio, a carrying case, the bundled games, etc, but those just don’t significantly impact the cost. The core technology in the Rift is the main driver - two built-for-VR OLED displays with very high refresh rate and pixel density, a very precise tracking system, mechanical adjustment systems that must be lightweight, durable, and precise, and cutting-edge optics that are more complex to manufacture than many high end DSLR lenses. It is expensive, but for the $599 you spend, you get a lot more than spending $599 on pretty much any other consumer electronics devices - phones that cost $599 cost a fraction of that to make, same with mid-range TVs that cost $599.
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01-07-2016 , 01:50 AM
I am very surprised Oculus are selling this below cost, I guess they have been shafted on suppliers / logistics. That or dubious design decisions - is it really that much better to have custom built-for-VR OLEDs, if it means an extra $150 in the sale price?

No doubt Sony are in an extremely strong position now, imo. OLEDs, optics, precise tracking systems - all stuff they're expert in with internal manufacturing or long standing contracts and advantages of bulk already.

edit: not to mention content studios on the payroll too. Expecting $399, tho wouldn't be surprised at a $299 base model.
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01-07-2016 , 03:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Get It
I get that the Rift is more powerful as one can just build a badass PC and go for it, but I would argue most don't have the general want or need for a $800+ PC and a $600 add on that has basically no games right now.
A lot (most?) "serious" pc gamers do have those pcs though (or are used, and willing, to upgrade) and that is the main market for this first generation of VR.

(Also - it's not like the pc you need has to be bleeding edge - I built my current one 18 months ago and it should run the OR quite well without upgrading)

As for "basically no games" - I can't think of many current games, where VR would make sense, that don't already have it or have it planned. While there may not be a ton of games specifically made for VR, there are a lot of existing/upcoming games that work very well with it.

That's one of the advantages VR has over for instance stuff like the Wii controllers - they needed custom made games as it made little sense to play current games with the new controllers and doing so was never going to improve the games. There are a lot of current games that makes perfect sense to play with a VR headset and which improves the gaming experience immensely.
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01-07-2016 , 03:30 AM
Why is everyone bringing up Sony? HTC seem to be the ones in the "PlayStation 4 position" at the moment.
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01-07-2016 , 03:45 AM
Expectation is Sony will be decent but cheap, HTC better than Rift but even more expensive.
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01-07-2016 , 04:26 AM
I didn't know that. More expensive seems like a bad move considering the initial reaction to Rift. I'm kind of shocked at the Rift's price point, I was thinking $400 at the very most.
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01-07-2016 , 04:50 AM
Yeah not sure how much HTC's "premium" angle holds now after the unexpectedly high Rift announcement - they could easily have been expecting $400 and were positioning as the premium device for $500, for all we know. Sony are the ones with momentum, though. As some random forbes blog I read earlier told me, Nvidia estimates ~13 million "VR capable" PCs are out there in the world. The PS4 is about to hit 36 million.
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01-07-2016 , 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusEV
A lot (most?) "serious" pc gamers do have those pcs though (or are used, and willing, to upgrade) and that is the main market for this first generation of VR.

(Also - it's not like the pc you need has to be bleeding edge - I built my current one 18 months ago and it should run the OR quite well without upgrading)

As for "basically no games" - I can't think of many current games, where VR would make sense, that don't already have it or have it planned. While there may not be a ton of games specifically made for VR, there are a lot of existing/upcoming games that work very well with it.

.
Steam hardware survey put less than 10% of PCs able to run games at the required resolution and frame rate for the Rift in terms of simple hardware requirements.

The resolution is higher than 1080p and you have to be reliably able to get near 100% 75fps.

To do this for most recent AAA games and have decent graphics settings and post processing, you will need a substatial machine.

Serious gamers that have serious kit are rarer than you think.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 01-07-2016 at 07:10 AM.
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01-07-2016 , 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by _dave_
I am very surprised Oculus are selling this below cost, I guess they have been shafted on suppliers / logistics. That or dubious design decisions - is it really that much better to have custom built-for-VR OLEDs, if it means an extra $150 in the sale price?
Absolutely, imo. I expect that we will see bleeding edge screens in the next few iterations. The somewhat short term goal is going to be 8K, considering that foveated rendering is on the horizon. Also, things like pentile vs RGB have been proven to show a noticeable difference.
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01-07-2016 , 07:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
Steam hardware survey put less than 10% of PCs able to run games at the required resolution and frame rate for the Rift in terms of simple hardware requirements.

The resolution is higher than 1080p and you have to be reliably able to get near 100% 75fps.

To do this for most recent AAA games and have decent graphics settings and post processing, you will need a substatial machine.

Serious gamers that have serious kit are rarer than you think.
I haven't talked numbers, so whether they're rarer than I think or not isn't really the issue.

I may not have formulated it well, but the point is that the target group for the current generation of VR are likely to have better machines than average gamers.

There is still a way to go before casual gamers, not to menition non-gamers, will get really interested in VR, so having specs that target more serious gamers is not going to hurt their sales as much as one might think.
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01-07-2016 , 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by heater
Absolutely, imo. I expect that we will see bleeding edge screens in the next few iterations. The somewhat short term goal is going to be 8K, considering that foveated rendering is on the horizon. Also, things like pentile vs RGB have been proven to show a noticeable difference.
Sony's true RGB screens, with three subpixels per pixel, for example, are the reason that they are able to reduce the screen door effect significantly vs the DK2, despite both being 1080p.
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01-07-2016 , 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusEV
A lot (most?) "serious" pc gamers do have those pcs though (or are used, and willing, to upgrade) and that is the main market for this first generation of VR.

(Also - it's not like the pc you need has to be bleeding edge - I built my current one 18 months ago and it should run the OR quite well without upgrading)

As for "basically no games" - I can't think of many current games, where VR would make sense, that don't already have it or have it planned. While there may not be a ton of games specifically made for VR, there are a lot of existing/upcoming games that work very well with it.

That's one of the advantages VR has over for instance stuff like the Wii controllers - they needed custom made games as it made little sense to play current games with the new controllers and doing so was never going to improve the games. There are a lot of current games that makes perfect sense to play with a VR headset and which improves the gaming experience immensely.
Let's assume your argument is right and that "most" serious pc gamers have high end pcs and are ready to spend an extra $600 on the rift.

And that these are the people you think that first gen vr is geared to.

I would counter this thinking by noting that Nvidia came out recently, I can find the article if I have to I guess, and said they think there are around 13 Million PCs that have the specs to run the Rift.

Now think that there are more than 35 Million + PS4s out there and if they come in at ~$400 or so that they insta win the "VR war". How could they not, cheaper price point and way higher install base.
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01-07-2016 , 11:35 AM
Yeah, there's no way most serious PC gamers meet these specs. I think I read that Steam put the number at around 10%.
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01-07-2016 , 11:41 AM
PSVR headset runs at 120hz... PS4 struggles to maintain 30fps in new titles at times...

Just think about how much the graphics are going to take a hit to actually output at 120fps.
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01-07-2016 , 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlorc
PSVR headset runs at 120hz... PS4 struggles to maintain 30fps in new titles at times...

Just think about how much the graphics are going to take a hit to actually output at 120fps.
That's 60 fps reprojected to 120. They are requiring devs to hit a solid 60 at minimum and can do up to 90 native. Take a look on YT for videos of Driveclub on PSVR or Google impressions. You'll be surprised.
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01-07-2016 , 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Get It
Now think that there are more than 35 Million + PS4s out there and if they come in at ~$400 or so that they insta win the "VR war". How could they not, cheaper price point and way higher install base.
This has nothing to do with what I've written though - I'm not sure why PS4 is being dragged into this at all? My point is that the market that is currently most keen on the OR/Vive typically consists of more serious gamers who therefore have more serious hardware. And by default they're all pc-owners so PS4 has nothing to do with the argument.

I have offered no opinion on who will "win the war", certainly not against the PS4-version. Did you really think there was a realistic pc-spec and OR-price that was going to out-compete the PS4-version?

That was not going to happen - the PS4-version is a cheap version because it can't offer what the PC-versions can. They're (currently) aiming at different markets.

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Originally Posted by heater
Yeah, there's no way most serious PC gamers meet these specs. I think I read that Steam put the number at around 10%.
So what exactly is considered a 'serious gamer'? People say 'only 10% of Steam users' like that is not a huge amount of people? 10% of what, exactly?
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01-07-2016 , 12:07 PM
I don't know, but I've seen the 13 million figure from nVidia as the number who currently meet the specs. That Steam number is 10% of all users, not whatever serious gamers is.

Don't care about a "war," either. They'll all be successful over time, imo. A rising tide raises all ships or whatever, anyway.
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01-07-2016 , 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MinusEV
Pretty much everyone thinks it's overpriced, especially given what was said/hinted at about price from OR previously.

I don't think the price of Sonys PS4-set will matter that much though - the pc is wastly superior when it comes to this and the main competition for OR there is the Vive and that's likely to be even more expensive than the Rift.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusEV
This has nothing to do with what I've written though - I'm not sure why PS4 is being dragged into this at all? My point is that the market that is currently most keen on the OR/Vive typically consists of more serious gamers who therefore have more serious hardware. And by default they're all pc-owners so PS4 has nothing to do with the argument.

I have offered no opinion on who will "win the war", certainly not against the PS4-version. Did you really think there was a realistic pc-spec and OR-price that was going to out-compete the PS4-version?

That was not going to happen - the PS4-version is a cheap version because it can't offer what the PC-versions can. They're (currently) aiming at different markets.
You said the Vive is the "Main competition" for the OR... I've been disagreeing with this thought the whole time saying the PS4 VR is going to do better from a competition stand point than either the OR or Vive. Reason being install base, games, price, ect.

Yes, anyone can gin up a god tier pc and go for it, but I simply see this market different as in people will happily save, what I believe is a material amount of money to most ($500-$X for a OR/Vive and good PC), and opt for what may not be the best experience out there but is more affordable and provides an acceptable level of quality. PS4.


And I never even implied that you said who you thought would "win". From the start here I just was saying that if Sony prices their head set aggressively they will have, what I believe to be, a huge advantage in this market space.



As an aside to that, I also disagree with the line that they will all do fine over time. The market will consolidate to one or two dominate players and the rest will be left behind imo.



Irrelevant to all that, I hope those on 2p2 who get any VR headset enjoy it and post updates on the games they find fun and their experiences as I may someday get one of em.
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01-07-2016 , 12:50 PM
I can't see there being only one or two manufacturers, eventually. How many electronics are there for which this is the case? Everyone and their brother will be jumping in as the market expands, if they aren't already, behind closed doors.
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