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Artifact ! (GabeN-blessed card game Dota-themed) Artifact ! (GabeN-blessed card game Dota-themed)

11-18-2018 , 01:45 AM
i had made a thread for artifact like 8 months ago or something

anyways, im pretty desperate for a betakey .

I really think a big part of the fun of this game is the drafting and planning all your positionning and crap, and those things arent very interesting for viewers.
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11-18-2018 , 11:35 AM
I'm skeptical of how successful this game will be:

1) It's pay to play. Although I think it ultimately makes it a better game, it will hurt adoption because you cannot try it at all before buying it. And then afterwards you must pay actual money for all expansion packs.

2) Complexity. One of the key reasons that Hearthstone took off is because of how they dumbed down Magic the gathering to appeal to a large, casual audience. Artifact, seems to go in the opposite directions with multiple lanes to do battle in. Just like how the more hardcore Dota2 is less popular than LoL, this is likely to scare away (or bore) more casual players who by far outnumber hardcore card game enthusiasts.

3) The state of the online CCG industry. Hearthstone exploded onto the scene when it launched in 2014 and popularized the online CCG. But since then countless competitors have launched and even Hearthstone is past its peak in popularity. With the overall CCG genre in decline, is there room for yet another competitor?

4) Its complexity makes it difficult to watch. Twitch was a key driver in the growth of Hearthstone and many other games. Without a large Twitch audience, it could be difficult to grow.

Regardless of the game's financial success, it does seem like it should be fun, complex, have the typical Valve polish and the real-money only economy will be an interesting factor to separate it from the competition.
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11-18-2018 , 01:10 PM
I don't think the game is particularly hard to watch, other concerns seem completely valid to me, but not that one. That's mostly the lack of familiarity with the game and the cards in particular
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11-18-2018 , 01:24 PM
Pay2Pay2Play is and has always been the problem here. HS may cost $150+ a year but at least you can be completely F2P and mess around. You can't even just try out Artifact. The universe is also super boring, graphics are too hard/real and it's a bit confusing at the start.
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11-18-2018 , 02:08 PM
I tried to get this merged with the other thread, but hasn't seemed to have happened yet.

Seems like some of the regular streamers are having issue with the game too, but I just feel like it's all going to be overlooked and the game will live on in its current state. I'm skeptical.

I'm willing to pay $20 to play and see what all the hype is about, but I'm not willing to pay to play the game and then continue to pay to play the game. Valve has to know something that we don't know for them to be allowing the game to go this route. I was reading something about the creator of the game designing it the way it is because he didn't like the idea of the game allowing F2P players playing under the idea that the "addicted" players are being exploited for the amount of money they are dropping into the game.

Valve is going to make more than 100% on the money you put into the game. You're going to have to pay to even have access to the game. Then, you're going to have to buy tickets because the current payout structure does not allow for a good player to play infinitely like you can in Magic. Some people are going to buy packs on top of that. And then, when you sell a card on the marketplace, they are going to take a commission/fee. They are taking money from every angle.

I just can't understand why they are going this route. Something doesn't make sense and I'm staying away for now. There is no pre-order bonus so it's not even worth preordering. I tried to get into the beta, but I'm not going to pander to those with beta keys making you jump through hopes for the .0000001% chance that they randomly draw you.

Game after game after game is the same thing. People are drooling over the game when it's in beta and are acting like hungry tigers, but then after the game releases, they forget about how bad it felt to wait. They get their fill and never play the game again.
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11-18-2018 , 02:34 PM
they have to be thinking that once someone puts in money up front they are less likely to abandon the game because of the sunk cost. just seems very bad. ive tried several of these games since hearthstone for various amounts of time but not getting this.
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11-18-2018 , 03:31 PM
Here are my thoughts about topics surrounding Artifact, long post ahead, even trying to keep each separate point brief.

---

On the business of games:

First, about Richard Garfield. For me, that name means nothing. Great games in the past are bad by modern standards and often succeeded from luck. Diablo by modern standards is a bad game. DOTA 1 by modern standards is a bad game. And MTG (A/B/Unlimited) by modern standards is a terrible game. MTG had the great help of many designers that came after and cleaned up the mess. Even today, I think it is still not that great a game, it's just (a lot) better than the crap out there.

Second, about monetization. In the modern era, games need to capitalize on users that continue to play. A person that plays 1000s+ of hours and only pays $50 is a bad deal for the developer and represents a lot of uncaptured value. This is why Diablo receives so few updates - the bottom line doesn't justify it.

I think the correct model that people were moving towards is, let's call it "ceiling pay to win". Which is, there's a cap on investment to be competitive, similar to getting all the playables in Hearthstone. This is also based on the concept (not yet fully accepted by the public) that yes, if you like a game and play it obsessively, it is legitimate for the developer to ask you pay $150 a year or whatever (no different from a WoW subscription.) I think the only way for games to stay balanced and fun (and avoid powercreep problems) is by having rotations. The main problem with rotations is that it does not give a permanent reward to investment in the game, but it's a problem that can be solved by a clever designer.

---

I think the next thing to fall is the idea that constructed is an integral part of CCGs, but people haven't realized it yet. This is based on the weakening of the notion that the cards even have to be "fully collectible" - as probably making them not tradeable was better. This is a nuanced point - the cards being tradeable is better for constructed as it allows a cheaper price for players to enjoy the game through experimenting with tier 2-3-4 decks, but there are also costs in that you cannot normalize the luck of packs (they all must have the same EV) which means you can frustrate players paying $200 for 100 packs and not having any tier 1 playable decks, and also you do not capture the theoretical value of these trades.

Already there is surprisingly wide agreement that Artifact constructed probably blows, and I think that realization will eventually cause a major shift in the psyche towards developing games that are "limited first". Traditionally for CCGs, the support of constructed formats have mostly been to justify card sales, not because it's a format that people demand in particular. In theory, limited is inherently more fun as there are more diverse gameplay situations, and more corner cases where unusual lines of play can be correct. The unfun-ness of constructed is also exacerbated by netdecking, as players quickly close in on the best decks which leaves the meta stale. Overall, paying $100 or whatever to play constructed is not really a good value proposition because of the repetitive gameplay states.

I think phantom draft is a good litmus test for the public's tolerance for paying for limited, like an arcade, as the variable is not confounded by the user's desire to play constructed. You pay $1 for a draft and may get some money back, so it's more like $0.60 or so. It has never seriously been tried in a CCG to put limited first and extract the majority of money that way. Once a better business model is figured out for card games (and believed in), you will see much better games come out that are limited first, but this will take time. Think "the League of Legends of card games".

===

On the gameplay:

First, a longwinded discussion about the mechanics of card games. The reason why games like MTG are fundamentally bad is because they have a problem of "non-games". This is a much bigger deal than most people think. It is not just the 20% of the time that you are completely screwed/flooded and I am not, but it is also the closer positions where eg. I am able to play 15 mana of stuff, and you are only able to play 11 mana of stuff. In those closer positions, which occur very frequently, the cards need to have higher variance to compensate.

So for example, I can play a 4/4 flier you can't deal with, I can play a board clear and get a 3 for 1, I can play a planeswalker that threatens to take over the entire game. If we look at a distribution of the difference between two (of the same) binomial distributions [ie. difference in amount of mana of stuff we can play on turn N], it is quite fat tailed, and this itself warps the design of the game. It also warps the design of the game in that consistent decks (ie. curve out by 4) are inherently stronger, and so to compensate the swing by the control player needs to be even more severe.

Another example would be in League of Legends, as a level 1 character you need 20 hits to die, but in a level 18 fight you can get 1 or 2 shotted. The (very high) increase in variance is to give the player behind a better chance. However, what this does is make the game less fun, similar to how open face chinese might be less fun if the deck had 4 jokers, as the meaningfulness of your decisions are reduced, and it's largely about who draws more jokers. This isn't to say that RNG is bad (it's not), but just that games like "slay the spire" or "dominion" (or open face chinese, surprisingly) execute on RNG elements a lot better than games like MTG which are fundamentally handicapped.

Where I am getting at is, Artifact [and HS, etc], as a game where cards are gated by mana (ie. some % of the time, you are not allowed to play this card), is still subject to these effects, although admittedly a lot less so than MTG. Again, this warps the design of the game by making the game bomb dependent, as you may often be missing early plays.

Why this matters is the same reason HS blows today: whereas before, playing a 4/5 on turn 4 was a good play, and the decision of whether to kill that 2/1 or go face is interesting, now you have people vomiting huge boards and making insane swing plays every turn. Artifact reminds me of modern HS in that it seeks to do the same. The problem is we've tried this, and HS lost a lot of gameplay appeal from this problem as whales started to quit. The reason they cited in reddit posts, is because the average meaningfulness of decisions was greatly reduced, which means that the learning loop of being able to learn from their mistakes was reduced, which is a core component of fun for longterm players [due to the relationship between learning and dopamine].

---

So what does this mean for Artifact? I have a few problems with Artifact:

First, it's very hard to read the board and the gamestate. A *single lane* can frequently have 8+ minions (one time I saw 20), and the equipment and abilities are confusing as they are not broken down into primitives but rather expect you to know the myriad of icons. This is not just confusing for viewers, it actually removes effective strategy as there is high computational overhead for players to understand the gamestate. This is like chess with 16 different types of pieces: its a lot slower and ****tier to play, and the quality of play is severely diminished.

In eg. Hearthstone, unit abilities are broken into primitives like Divine Shield which take a lot of complexity away. Even when the ability is eg. a death rattle (ie. text ability), the icon clues you in about what that means. This makes it very hard for a casual audience / to grow the game. I personally am willing to read through 200 cards to know what I'm watching, but other people are not. A good analogy would be trying to watch live MTG broadcasts when you don't know the cards. It sucks. In a modern design, games should be similar to Hearthstone in that you can effectively parse the content. Though, Artifact *is* based on DOTA :eyeroll:

Second, Artifact's initiative system is terrible. Very specifically, the fact that you cannot play spells in lanes where your hero has died creates tremendous variance in the game, and warps the game towards bombs. I think right now people are like "hurr durr, there is so much strategy created! passing and letting your guy die is strategerery!!!111oneoneeleven", but time will prove that this is actually terrible gameplay. You shouldn't have a hand of 10 cards and be passing over and over in your game. You shouldn't be locked out of playing a card. This reminds me of classic Pokemon TCG, where the best deck when the game came out is a deck that killed your starting pokemon on turn 1, since you weren't technically allowed to replace it in time, so therefore you lose.

Third, the tri-lane mechanic is a bust. Best 2 of 3 is a decent mechanic, but the reality of the situation is that lanes are often forfeited. This creates a solitaire effect, where eg. I am attacking for 32 on an empty lane into a 38 tower, and you are attacking for 21 into an 80 tower or whatever. With the high numbers involved (low granularity), this does not feel like a race, it feels like a coinflip - you just so happened to be lucky to deal 38 instead of 37 on that turn, so you won. One subtle reason that should be pointed out as to why lanes are forfeited, is due to the snowball-ey nature of combat and the ****ty initiative system. If for example blue has weak heroes, then when you have a 7/11 axe hero out, I don't want to play my bull**** hero into that lane where it will promptly get 1 shotted and I don't retain my ability to counter play in that lane, even if I have better spells that want to play there.

Fourth, draft is very high variance due to the dependence on strong heroes. This is much more variance than just "opening a bomb in MTG (limited)". If for example you open Zeus, you now get 3 flamestrikes too.

===

Parting words, I expect that this game will get propped up for a long time due to the money investment by Valve, and their willingness to just buy the entire pro/streaming scene. Probably I will end up playing it. Though, I really wish there was a good competitive card game that I can invest in. If someone doesn't make one within 2 years, I may have to start making one.
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11-18-2018 , 05:19 PM
A lot of the complexity of the game will be simplified because new players understand moba's (presumably) and the idea of getting an advantage in a lane by ganking isn't super hard to understand. The trade-ability of the game is likely to be much higher as steam is unlikely to go anywhere soon. The business model seems smart if they can retain players after a few years, there are a lot of dota players who support all the free to play players. I know multiple dota players that pay hundreds every year at battlepass time. I'm sure that Richard Garfield has been watching ccgs over the years and probably would have designed mtg much differently if he could do it all over again.

Still lots of question marks like how fun the game will be to play and what the final business model will really be. The good news for valve is that Gaben will surely just lower the prices if that is what needs to be done. He views his company as the new Blizzard and Gamestop in one. Dude could seriously make it rain and starve Hearthstone out of the market if that is what he needs to do.

So in summary, fun or not? I'll surely give them $20 and hope that the business model isn't too greedy. I'm unlikely to spend $200 a year however fun the game is.
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11-18-2018 , 05:22 PM
I wonder how much it will cost to get a complete collection of the cards. Hearthstone, like most F2P games, has a significant portion of the playerbase that pays little to no money. So in the case of a game like that, the people that pay money have to subsidize the people who don't. It also encourages scummy tactics like preying on whales.

But in a game like Artifact, where EVERYONE is a paying customer, then the paying players aren't subsidizing anything and in return should be getting more value for their money. At least in theory.
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11-18-2018 , 05:25 PM
Huge news already to fix a big amount of complaints

https://steamcommunity.com/games/583...85526495756390


Seems like they're not afraid to listen to feedback and save their game, thank god.
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11-18-2018 , 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synth_floyd
I wonder how much it will cost to get a complete collection of the cards. Hearthstone, like most F2P games, has a significant portion of the playerbase that pays little to no money. So in the case of a game like that, the people that pay money have to subsidize the people who don't. It also encourages scummy tactics like preying on whales.

But in a game like Artifact, where EVERYONE is a paying customer, then the paying players aren't subsidizing anything and in return should be getting more value for their money. At least in theory.
Kripp said something like $300-400 to have a good collection the other day. The r/Artifact reddit is up in arms about the cost.
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11-18-2018 , 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Hero
I don't think the game is particularly hard to watch, other concerns seem completely valid to me, but not that one. That's mostly the lack of familiarity with the game and the cards in particular
At least three people who streamed HS said the game isn't very good for their viewers.

Personally, I've played MTGA and HS. HS is easier to grasp, and MTGA can get fairly complex in comparison, but Artifact just looks like gimmicky as **** with too much stuff going on to be able to comprehend it without playing the game yourself for a period of time. I watched Kripp play it, who is very good at explaining games to noobs, and I got nothing out of it.

If noobs cannot watch the game and have some base understanding of it and the streamers cannot convey what's going on very well, it's no bueno.
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11-18-2018 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul D
Kripp said something like $300-400 to have a good collection the other day.
That's pretty ridiculous if true. I assumed that the social contract that Valve had with players was going to be something along the lines of:

"We are Valve. We want to make the best game possible. Therefore, we have chosen a 100% pay to play model. There will be no F2P elements in our game. However, as a consequence of this, we will make sure that you get the maximum value for your dollars spent. We will not put any scummy F2P features in our game, like forcing the players to grind, annoy players with ads to buy stuff, pandering to whales, etc. So please come and play Artifact, because in a world of crappy F2P experiences, we want you to enjoy a quality game for a reasonable price."

...but apparently that isn't the case. Or at least not yet. If enough people complain or sales end up being bad they will continue to make adjustments.
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11-18-2018 , 09:48 PM
watched tides play for maybe five minutes before giving up
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11-18-2018 , 10:13 PM
between the board flying around and the text being so small on cards and so much **** happening and not explanatory I just cant do it
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11-18-2018 , 10:20 PM
Yeah I didn't find it very exciting to watch. It did make me want to play it, but right now I have no interest in spending real money on card packs. Hopefully the game will fail so Valve will have to reduce the prices.
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11-18-2018 , 10:24 PM
'Kripp REALLY Explains Artifact'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuE80Rm2InY

Last edited by Regret$; 11-18-2018 at 10:36 PM. Reason: spoiler! video is mostly click bait, valvo gonna get that $$$
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11-18-2018 , 10:45 PM
all of these are before the update from valve tho
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11-19-2018 , 05:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice

Longest post in the thread
I do think the only reason Magic succeeded is because it came first. People are commited to their collections (and playgroups.)

As far as best game goes, Wow:tcg was by far the best card game yet. Basically HS combat system, Mtg spell system and own mana system where you can play any hand card as a resource. Too bad Blizzard axed the game as to not compete with HS.
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11-19-2018 , 09:48 AM
I liked the Eternal resource system the best and the gameplay was fun.

cant remember what exactly did it in but it just never caught on. client was solid and it was extremely easy to acquire cards, think Ii had everything I needed mostly f2p in like two weeks. might have just been too easy in general, you get to "legend" in a day of playing ranked after a reset and Id get to top ten in the rankings whenever so it just felt like there was no real goal to strive towards.
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11-19-2018 , 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkgojackets
I liked the Eternal resource system the best and the gameplay was fun.

cant remember what exactly did it in but it just never caught on. client was solid and it was extremely easy to acquire cards, think Ii had everything I needed mostly f2p in like two weeks. might have just been too easy in general, you get to "legend" in a day of playing ranked after a reset and Id get to top ten in the rankings whenever so it just felt like there was no real goal to strive towards.
I really hate Eternal's system. It is basically mtg lands, except once you have played X "green" lands, you can you can cast any number of spells requiring X green as long as your total mana is enough. It is very slight change to mtg's system, but has pretty much all of its downfalls. Reason Eternal and Hex don't do well is because they are basically MTG rules v1.1 without any of the benefits of the existing player base, brand, lore and card pool on 20k+.
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11-19-2018 , 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul D
At least three people who streamed HS said the game isn't very good for their viewers.

Personally, I've played MTGA and HS. HS is easier to grasp, and MTGA can get fairly complex in comparison, but Artifact just looks like gimmicky as **** with too much stuff going on to be able to comprehend it without playing the game yourself for a period of time. I watched Kripp play it, who is very good at explaining games to noobs, and I got nothing out of it.

If noobs cannot watch the game and have some base understanding of it and the streamers cannot convey what's going on very well, it's no bueno.
Kripp actually explained the game very well, he just doesn't do it every 5minutes for every new viewer. If your point is that the game is hard to follow without any other context, then I agree, it's almost impossible.
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11-19-2018 , 03:11 PM
I liked eternal but getting land screwed sucks and decided too many games for my liking. Plus I mostly played draft and ony having keeper drafts made it impossible to play without putting money into it. I might still play if they had phantom drafts with reasonable rewards.
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11-19-2018 , 03:28 PM
some sort of resource variance is necessary to avoid curvestone though. iirc you always started with between 2-4 "lands" and got a free mulligan, there were a handful of non-games but nowhere near MTG levels.
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11-19-2018 , 05:11 PM
Yeah I had no desire to go anywhere near mtg when I found out their system was even worse. Gwent solved that by not having mana at all lol. Artifact's system seems pretty good for avoiding curve orientented decks with way fewer blowouts due purely to rng though no one's really playing constructed at all yet. Once you understand what's going on it looks interesting enough that i'll probably throw Gabe $20. Hopefully there's enough community pressure that they fix the economy at some point though.
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