Did you watch the fight? Ok, i'm gonna rewind because I swore Sapp was on his back at the end of round 1, and the the next round started with him on his back.

Yeah, that's what i'm looking at. Am I missing something?


I'm excited to see how the the big man loses. Obvioulsy Minotaura can hold his own, but... 2/3 through.

EDIT: Nvm, that whole thing was one round. I'm watching this without sound btw. What was the deal with them breaking and going to corners mid-round?

There were a couple of times that they stopped the fight in the middle of a round for a doctor check. In those cases they restart the fighters where they left off.

Whoa, that was nuts. Sapp basically ran out of gas and then Minotauro hit him with the arm bar. You could see the big man literally gasping for air towards the end. A bit anticlimactic, but you could see it coming. Little man had to withstand quite a few hammers to the face.

Lol at the kung fu dude on here.

Kung fu was proven to be absolutely ineffectual way back in UFC 1 and in every other ufc since when one of them cropped up.

The old "my techniques are more deadly" argument is a tired old argument used by kung fu peeps upset that their best fighters get raped by any z-level mma fighter.

As someone mentioned they apply a peverse logic that somehow the more athletic, skilled pro mma fighter wouldnt be able to gouge and grab as well.

Some chimp info from Wiki.

Severly Mauled Genitals
Druken Baby Eaters

Good luck with the rear naked choke plan.

So two chimps catching a 61 year old man off guard is good evidence for how one chimp would fare against the best fighter in the world?

No. If you had to learn one martial art, brazilian jiujitsu would be the most practical. What people don't understand is the gigantic difference between a trained and untrained person. In a street fight, a jiujitsu expert would submit the other (untrained) person with ridiculous ease. Hell they could just let the guy tackle them and they'd fall right into a guillotine choke. They know how to use their body and leverage to prevent the opponent from being in a dominant position where it's easier to do attacks like gouges. For example, on their back they stay in "the guard", where they are essentially using their entire body against the opponent's upper body.

You have to also realize there's a difference between pain and real danger. If one of these guys is choking you and you try to start hitting him in the balls (which might not even be possible in the position you're in), they know they're not in any real danger (even though it's painful), and that as long as they don't let go you'll be asleep in a few seconds.

I'd recommend watching/downloading UFC 1-4. There were hardly any rules at this time (no gouging/fishhooking, but groin strikes were aloud). The grappling guys aren't the most entertaining fights, but you see how they defeat people well trained in other martial arts with relative ease.

Here's another example of technique vs. size/strength. There's probably better examples, considering the sumo wrestler sucks.

Anyone who limits themselves to rigid stylistic techniques in a street fight is giving up some advantage to an opponent who doesn't. That said there is no reason a Brazilian jujitsu practitioner couldn't also employ some of the techniques you mentioned in a street fight.

I'd like to add a few things:

1) versus a single opponent, the grappling styles (augmented with some basic knowledge of opportune striking) are probably the most effective and best to learn. But against against multiple simultaneous opponents (like if you are facing a 3 versus 1 situation in a bar or alley), the value of grappling goes down and the value of striking from a standing position goes up. This is because once you are down it is nearly impossible to grapple efectively against multiple opponents and you will probably get kicked by someone still standing). So, primarily grappling is best versus one, but versus many, you had better be able to land some disabling blows while still remaining standing. So in that case I would like your chances better with boxing/tae kwon do/karate etc.

2) Six month's boxing > six month's karate (or any similar style). For a karateka to be favored to beat a boxer (all else being equal) he needs to be more advanced than just six month's training. It takes considerably longer to get really good at karate. Hand techniques in boxing are very flexible, fast and powerful, and range is used well in boxing. Yes kicking has greater pure range but it exposes you more, weakens your stability, and slows you down compared to boxing hand techniques. Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do was based on primarily boxing, Wing Chun Kung Fu hand techniques, and the concept of range as in fencing. By the way I would have liked to see Bruce Lee in his prime versus some of these UFC or MMA-type guys in his weight class. I think with his speed and coordination and fantastic use of range, a top Brazilian jujitsu practitioner would have had his hands full and could have had a lot of trouble closing to grappling. So while I do generally favor grappling it isn't necessarily the be-all and end-all of martial arts.

3) Anyone who likes this stuff and hasn't seen Bruce Lee in Enter The Dragon, you're missing out;-) Never mind his other movies, this is the one to watch. Shoot right down to Blockbuster and rent it for a buck or two, you'll be glad you did. It is really spectacular, and as a grappler myself I would rather much rather face another grappler than a Bruce Lee;-) By the way, if any of you guys like Chuck Norris or Van Damme movies, and haven't seen Bruce Leee in Enter The Dragon, all I will say is that Bruce Lee makes those two stars look, well, kind of slow and klutzy. Also, Bolo is pretty damn impressive too. Either one would scare me more than Gracie or Norris, even if that doesn't seem to make much sense.

i just love how a kung fu, karate, ect, guys like to tell themselves that the can defete jiu jitsu by biting, scratching, and groin strikes because on the street there are no rules. what a joke that is. what's going to stop the jj guy from using these same moves? everyone has mastered them by the time they get to junior high school.

Yeah, I really don't want to derail the thread anymore than it is, but my old roommate that told me this had trained and was proficient in both JJS and kung fu, so I figured it to be an unbiased opinion.
But here are some thoughts: OF COURSE the JJS fighter can strike groins and gouge eyes, but once he starts doing that, HE IS BACK in the striker's territory.
Eariler in the thread, somebody talked about an arm bar, and how the JJS fighter is using his whole body against the opponents bicep. So if he's using his whole body, what is he going to use to groin strike or eye gouge? It's one or the other.
Even in the Sapp-Minotaura fight posted, at the final arm bar, Sapp couldve (not in this fight obv) did something 'illegal' to prevent it. When you talk about groin attacks, it's not so much of a strike as ripping the opponents scrotum off. That's sounds n but the force required for this is minimal. There were plenty of times when Minotaura's eyes and groin were just sitting there.
Anyhow, i'm not biased in favor of any style, I don't practice martial arts, but I have boxed and been in my share of nasty fights, so these are just some common sense observations.

no when you are on your back stuck in an armbar you realy cant do [censored] with your free arm. trust me i've been there. also something tells me your friend has a biased opinion because he probably has been doing kung fu for a long time and just dabled in jiu jitsu. i've taken tae kwon do when i was younger and i did not get a lot from it. but the truth is that there is no 1 style that is the end all be all of fighting. you must incorperate different styles in your game to be very good against all styles. but not much if anything can be taken from kung fu to make a good hybrid style. sounds like your friend, like most, traditional martial artist is in denial and cant come to terms with the fact that he has wasted years of his time practicing something that is combat inefective. that is understandable the human ego is a powerfull thing.

This is like that other thread where somehow people thought a UFC champ could kill an angry 2000lb saltwater croc. A chimp would annihilate any human, if only because of how quickly the human body goes into shock when presented with extreme pain.

If the chimp is muzzled, a well-trained human with the size and strength of a pro NFL offensive tackle might have a chance. Most NFL tackles can squat or bench press over 700 lb. some tight ends can do this.

By the way, what are the effects of groin attacks on a chimp? Could a human help his strategy by incorporating them?

This kind of reminds of Little Mac vs. Kid Dynamite fight in Mike Tyson's Punch Out for the NES.

The ultra fast Mike Tyson knocks you out if he hits you with one punch. However, if you can dodge all of those, you can get a small hit in from time to time. Eventually, you hit him enough that he eventually falls.

In other words, it is possible for Little Mac to win. But once Kid Dynamite hits him, it's all over.

They tore his foot off.

That is possible, he did have a personality that could easily behave this way. Like I said, i'm not even sure if it was kung fu, but I know it was either that or a similar art.
Anyhow, thanks for the replies, something that was in the back of my mind and came out when I saw this discussion.

I don't think you guys get it. As soon as you get within striking distance of the chimp, he's going to town on your forearms/hands. After sustaining the subsequent severe lacerations/loss of digits, you have roughly 2 seconds to execute your groin strike before you go into shock and watch helplessly as Coco devours your testicles.

Has anyone mentioned the very low center of gravity for the chimp? Even the most severe crouching by the human will not get below this. The chimp will have the choice between using it's leverage or jumping up at the last minute to go for the head in it's initial run at the human.

If the chimp enters the ring already enraged (perhaps provoked like the bulls in a bullfight) and the human therefore unable to land a sucker punch, I doubt the human could last more than a few minutes.

Now I'm curious. WTF makes a chimp so strong? Some sort of super muscle fibers?

Yeah, that' pretty much it. Incredibly dense musculature. They swing from trees the way humans walk.

I think most everybody "gets it." The chimp is a favorite, a very big one. But if he is the dead nuts, then there isn't much to discuss, so let's assume that the human has a chance greater than 0%.

The interesting part of the discussion for me is how a human could increase his chances/select a strategy, what would actually happen in the events of the fight (beyond just "zomg partsrippedoff"), and if there's anything we haven't thought of yet.

OK, I want to say that I am disappointed at the lack of counter argument to the ones presented here. The chimp is in no way the 'dead nuts'.

1st - Let's take the 1 arm pull that others mentioned. Chimp 1200lps (135lb chimp), Human 250lb (weighing 200lbs) (this is from memory). The article says that chimp pulled as chips do...this meant that the chimp put both legs on the wall and pulled...in effect the human was standing and pulling, while the chump lefted from the ground up. I think that a world champ human could easly one arm pull from the ground-up with a force of 500 to 600lbs...further a 100lb chimp may only pull around the same (based on variance).

THIS IS A CHIMP VS BEST HUMAN EVER QUESTION (not best chimp ever)

2nd - Chimp can not attack with all for limps simultaneously, as DS suggested. The four limp attack is not that important (I assume at least that the chimp is not flying around the a cage or swinging from trees during attack).

3rd - The chimp in no way will be made to 'kill the human at all costs', as to the effect the human would. DS suggests that the chimps young should be threatened. However he did not say the human should believe his children should be threatened if he losses. This is a decided advantagous to the chimp. However, I believe a portion of the time the human could lure the chimp to a more docile mode. Plus, I believe many of you feel sorry for the chimp (the one that you are trying to get to kill a human). This is silly, when speaking hypothetically.

4th - Skill is a huge factor (and smarts). What is the dead nuts anyway? 100% victory? Well you are dead wrong on that one DS . Look at what I presented. Ok, with the skill factor...how many hits does it take to kill a chimp? If they are similar to humans, just 1. I believe a true fighter would idealy try for just one hit, straight to the throat. Punch? No way! DS is wrong in this as well. He is comparing arm reach to arm reach. You got to be kidding me. How tall are chimps when they 'walk'. I figure a 100lbs chimp is about 4' tall when all fours. And the human is obviously going to attack with his foot, which is roughly as long as the chimps arms, so equal reached.

Think about it You have a chimp whose thoat is about 4' from the ground and has only has about equal reach of the human leg to chimp arm. The human could strike the chimp dead before his crazy arms got into the mess. How often has a chimp killed a human...the average chimp, not crazy human killing 100lb chimp. The chimp will be unprepared while the human could be practicing the death kick for months.

Lastly-
Are you assuming that the chimp has razor sharp claws and teeth and that the human does not? That is rediculous. In a true effort the human would file down his teeth (in the same manner chimps do), and sharpen his nails. BUT, practically the human should simply have small claws attached to his fingers and in his mouth.

My point is the chimp is not the dead nuts...at best 75% chance of winning, comparable to 88 vs 77 (human 77) all in preflop.

iH8(chimp loving humans)