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Old 11-30-2006, 07:31 PM   #76
pete fabrizio
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Quote:
Youtube video of a chimp from a group getting a bit annoyed with some guys feeding them.

I certainly wouldn't want to get involved in a scrap with one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vE3VQdLa4
Actually, they didn't look that dangerous in that vid to me. You certainly don't see any limbs flying, and that guy seems to do a pretty good job tackling one.
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Old 11-30-2006, 07:33 PM   #77
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

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[

Lol. Chimps aren't people. His reach is twice what a human's is, not to mention the fact that he can simply roll into a ball and grip the choke arm with all four limbs (you know, the ones that exert a pull of a thousand pounds apiece) and pry you loose.

You're just being ridiculous.
You are wrong. You don't understand the mechanics of the choke. I can't explain it well, but I'll try. The choker's legs are wrapped and locked tightly around the opponent's midsection, therefore the opponent cannot use his legs, cannot bend or twist his body (e.g. roll into a ball). This also allows the choker to stretch his entire body out, putting the force of his whole body into the choke. You put one hand on your other bicep, and the other hand grasped behind your own head.

The monkey has a matter of seconds before he passed out. The ONLY way he can get out is to know how your arms/hands are configured and where to pull on them. BTW, the 1000 lbs of pull or whatever is using their whole body and legs. In this case he only has the strength purely in his arm, and at an odd reaching-behind angle. The chip doesn't have the poise, intelligence, or knowledge of the choke to counter. He will flail and thrash wildly, then pass out.

For those of you comparing it to fighting a little kid, I have an interesting story. The only time I've passed out due to a rear naked choke was when I taught a friend's 10 year old brother how to do it. He thought it was funny to keep choking when I tapped out, and I woke up seconds later on top of him completely limp, him laughing his ass off (thinking I was playing), and me having no idea what had just happened or where I was.
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:00 PM   #78
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

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Lol. Chimps aren't people. His reach is twice what a human's is, not to mention the fact that he can simply roll into a ball and grip the choke arm with all four limbs (you know, the ones that exert a pull of a thousand pounds apiece) and pry you loose.

You're just being ridiculous.
I'm disappointed that someone with a physics background like you could be making such fundamental misjudgements about the chimpanzee's strength while someone is choking it from behind. I should not need to tell you this, but the mechanical advantage of a chimpanzee trying to pull on something that is mounted on its back is miniscule compared to what it is capable of while standing on its feet and unencumbered. There is absolutely no way that the chimp would be able to produce 1000 lbs of force on any part of the humans body when it is in the rear naked choke position.

But since you are smart, I will assume that your misjudgments are based on your lack of knowledge about the positioning involved. If the chimp was being choked properly, it would never be able to roll into a ball and use its feet because the fighter would have completely immobilized the chimps legs.

Look at this picture (crappy quality but the best I could find for now):


Notice how the fighter applying the choke has his legs wrapped around the inside of the other fighter's thighs, effectively immobilizing them. The fighter being choked cannot simply curl hi slegs forward becuase it is his hip flexors versus the other guys hamstrings, glutes, and lower back, which is a battle that he cannot win. With respect to the upper body, the fighter applying the choke also has a huge mechanical adavtage becuase the arm applying the choke is firmly tucked underneath the other fighter's chin, and he is grabbing his own arm behind the choked fighter's head. Once the choke is sunk, the choked fighter even if he is very strong, has little chance of pulling the arm away because there is virtually nothing to grab and he has no leverage because he needs to pull at something that is behind his head. If you think a chimpanzee could rip off someone's head from this postion, you are being absoulely ridiculous.

Or, if the person or animal being choked were face down like this:


he or it would be screwed no matter how strong he or it were.

Also, you are wrong about the chimps arms being twice the lenght of a humans. Chimps arms are much longer relative to their body size, but since chmips are on average only 3-4 feet tall, their arms are at most only slightly longer than a 6' human's arms.
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:08 PM   #79
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

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Second, keep in mind you're talking about applying a technique that's proven effective on a human and assuming it's going to work on a chimp.
What about a chimp's anatomy would make that technique ineffecive? They need blood flowing to their brains in order to be conscious juts like humans do.
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:09 PM   #80
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Gay porn will not change the fact that an average chimp could kill any man on the planet.
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:14 PM   #81
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

I smell a crimson challenge!
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:14 PM   #82
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

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Gay porn will not change the fact that an average chimp could kill any man on the planet.
Typical ignorant response. People used to say the same stupid stuff about kung fu fighters being invincible until they saw them get their asses beat by 150lb grapplers in less than a minute.
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:16 PM   #83
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

[quote]
Quote:
Youtube video of a chimp from a group getting a bit annoyed with some guys feeding them.

I certainly wouldn't want to get involved in a scrap with one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vE3VQdLa4
Actually, they didn't look that dangerous in that vid to me. You certainly don't see any limbs flying, and that guy seems to do a pretty good job tackling one. [/quote

that chimp was just playing with him

if the chimp was trying to kill him he'd be very dead
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:16 PM   #84
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Quote:
Quote:

Second, keep in mind you're talking about applying a technique that's proven effective on a human and assuming it's going to work on a chimp.
What about a chimp's anatomy would make that technique ineffecive? They need blood flowing to their brains in order to be conscious juts like humans do.
i doubt the first move you posted would work because the chimp is much shorter than the human. the human wouldn't be able to lock the legs and that way, the chimp maintains mobility and can curl back like other people said. secondly, theres the question if a chimp would ever allow a human to get into such a position.
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:17 PM   #85
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

It's interesting to note how little technology it takes to turn this around. While I agree the chimp would have a huge advantage against many excellent fighters in "metal cage" type fights, I'd bet that if I encountered a homicidal chimp as I walked past the biology building, I'd be victorious. The simple one-hand-opening folding knife I routinely carry in my pocket is just too efficient at cutting straight through muscle, tendon, blood vessel, and lung. I might not look pretty on the other end of the encounter, but I bet I'd be the survivor.
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:26 PM   #86
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

Second, keep in mind you're talking about applying a technique that's proven effective on a human and assuming it's going to work on a chimp.
What about a chimp's anatomy would make that technique ineffecive? They need blood flowing to their brains in order to be conscious juts like humans do.
i doubt the first move you posted would work because the chimp is much shorter than the human. the human wouldn't be able to lock the legs and that way, the chimp maintains mobility and can curl back like other people said. secondly, theres the question if a chimp would ever allow a human to get into such a position.
The point is most people, even those that watch it a lot, don't know much about ultimate fighting. Just like before ultimate fighting started people would be giving huge odds of Mike Tyson in his prime being able to beat a 170lb person with average build, average athleticism but expert brazilian jujitsu skills. Anyone knowledgeable about MMA knows Tyson wouldn't stand a chance.

What you see on UFC only involves strength because all the fighters know the same technique nowadays. When one fighter doesn't know the techniques, the relative strength of the fighters is not of big consequence.

I'm only saying most people don't understand the techniques used in MMA enough to come to such quick and obvious decisions. This is illustrated by the fact that Sklansky thought the human only had a chance if he got a lucky eye gouge in, which is ridiculous because an eye gouge would do nothing to the chimp, and an MMA fighter would have much more effective weapons.
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:00 PM   #87
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Quote:
Quote:

Second, keep in mind you're talking about applying a technique that's proven effective on a human and assuming it's going to work on a chimp.
What about a chimp's anatomy would make that technique ineffecive? They need blood flowing to their brains in order to be conscious juts like humans do.
I'd imagine that the range of motion / flexibility of a monkey to be much greater than a human and as such, moves that render a human helpless, MAY NOT have the same effect on a chimp.
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:35 PM   #88
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Those who believe the highly trained human may have a reasonable shot aren't denying the strength or savage nature of a chimp (or other wild animal). No doubt, a chimp would be a formidable opponent for even the best MMA style fighter.

The argument is around whether or not the chimp is the dead nuts.

If we take that a chimp has five to ten times the stregth of the average man, adjustments then need to be made for the strength of a top level MMA fighter. Assuming that a heavyweight would have the best chance against a chimp, it isn't a stretch to say that a top heavyweight may have three or four times the strength of an average man.

If we then take that same heavyweight and pit him against an average chimp, the average chimp would be somewhere around twice as strong as the human fighter. That's a significant closing of the gap, enough to elimate the prospect of a man's limp or head being torn easily off. If the fighter gets lucky and draws a below average chimp (and it appears that a 100 pounder would tend towards the small side) the that gap closes further.

Since Sklansky was vague about the particulars of the contest, assume that the fighter knew he would be going against the chimp. If he had an extended training period where he studied and practiced against chimps, it would stand to reason that the fighter would either signifcantly close his deficit or build his edge. Eventually, the fighter and his coaches would find the best techniques and strategies to use against chimps. The chimp would not be similarly advantaged.

Further, if the chimp were forced to fight under the umbrella of MMA tpye rules, where the chimp's teeth were removed from the equation, the animalistic advantages would be further dulled.

On the flip side of that equation, if it was truly a no holds barred event, where the chimp could do anything it might do in the wild and if the human had no idea he'd be pitted against a chimp, the chimp may well figure to be the favorite.

So how would one handicap such an event. My sense is that a top heavyweight MMA fighter with preperation, somewhat favorable rules and lucky enough to draw a below average chimp could stand to be a favorite. A "surprised" MMA heavywieght against a top chimp in terms or strength and or hostile disposition could stand to be a dog. It does not seem reasonable to consider the chimp the dead nuts. Perhaps a 2 to 1 favorite with the most chimp favorable conditions might be reasonable.

Perhaps the more interesting question would be if the chimp would be the best value bet assuming public sentiment would tend to pushed side with the fighter. From a sports bettor's perspective, the chimp may become the attractive bet if this event were to come to pass, but surely not at "dead nuts" type odds.

Lastly, I did not intend for the orangutan story to be a definitive account. Surely, the orangutan confrontation could've ended very badly. However, the orangutan initiated the conflict and was beaten back by a determined man. It calls into question the degree to which an animal can be counted on to tempermentally press his edge. While this wasn't a fight to the death, it does indicate than even a massive strength edge can be overcome (and without that story I would've been fresh out of monkey vs. man parables).
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:51 PM   #89
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

lol, this thread does an excellent job of showing who the MMA fan boys are.

I honestly can't believe anyone would pick the human. The human ego never ceases to amaze me.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:10 PM   #90
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Quote:
Quote:
[

Lol. Chimps aren't people. His reach is twice what a human's is, not to mention the fact that he can simply roll into a ball and grip the choke arm with all four limbs (you know, the ones that exert a pull of a thousand pounds apiece) and pry you loose.

You're just being ridiculous.
You are wrong. You don't understand the mechanics of the choke. I can't explain it well, but I'll try. The choker's legs are wrapped and locked tightly around the opponent's midsection, therefore the opponent cannot use his legs, cannot bend or twist his body (e.g. roll into a ball). This also allows the choker to stretch his entire body out, putting the force of his whole body into the choke. You put one hand on your other bicep, and the other hand grasped behind your own head.

The monkey has a matter of seconds before he passed out. The ONLY way he can get out is to know how your arms/hands are configured and where to pull on them. BTW, the 1000 lbs of pull or whatever is using their whole body and legs. In this case he only has the strength purely in his arm, and at an odd reaching-behind angle. The chip doesn't have the poise, intelligence, or knowledge of the choke to counter. He will flail and thrash wildly, then pass out.

For those of you comparing it to fighting a little kid, I have an interesting story. The only time I've passed out due to a rear naked choke was when I taught a friend's 10 year old brother how to do it. He thought it was funny to keep choking when I tapped out, and I woke up seconds later on top of him completely limp, him laughing his ass off (thinking I was playing), and me having no idea what had just happened or where I was.
OK no offense but your information appears to be limited or is incomplete.

I have spent literally many dozens of hours both applying chokes and struggling against chokes during competitions. And I'm not talking about dozens of hours of total competition; I'm talking about the dozens of hours spent solely working the chokes themselves during competitions. In other words I have spent probably over 60 hours purely in struggling against chokes and applying chokes, during competitions.

In sport judo we have all the jujitsu chokes. They look identical to the ones at UFC and those used by the Gracies; we were doing this long before UFC and Brazilian jujitsu ever became well-known in the United States. Besides bare arm chokes, we also utilize chokes involving the use of the gi (uniform), the sturdy flexible edge of which is pulled against and around the opponent's neck, cutting off the blood supply to the brain faster and more thoroughly than than any bare arm choke can accomplish. The properly applied effect is much like a garrotte, which of course is why the safety protocol of tapping out is a necessary feature.

Some nights when I got home from competition or randori, my neck was covered with visible bruises caused by resisting chokes. It was not uncommon for me to spend ten minutes or more during a single contest, the entire ten minutes spent resisting or applying a choke. A randori lasting 20 or 30 minutes might involve 3/4 of that time spent in matwork and often much of the matwork time spent involved trying to apply or resist/escape from a choke.

To resist a choke you tuck your chin as much as possible, hunch your back and neck foreward to the extent you can, and get some fingers under the arm or cloth that is choking you. Then you push/pull it away slightly to create a little room. Meanwhile the side(s) of your neck may still be taking some pressure especially if it is a gi choke so you have to just deal with that the best you can.

Next you try to escape, that is, after you have secured a little respite from the pressure by using the above steps.

Many times I or my opponent escaped and that includes from chokes applied by black belts. Other times we had to tap out and I barely passed out a few times...this is over hundreds of choke situations in contest. Of course we did standing competition and other matwork too.

The person doing the choke tries to work the grip tighter and tighter, sometimes cinching up the cloth by degrees, all the while trying to maintain body control of the opponent, often as you described. There are not only rear chokes but also frontal chokes; chokes from top or bottom; usually these involve legs wrapped around the midsection to attempt body control and to try to remove the opponent's ability to work his way to his feet (support).

A stronger person can sometimes simply break the locked grip of the choker, even if he cannot escape fully at the moment. Of course this is rarely easy but it is a situation that happens. And the greater the strength differential the greater the chance the chokee can break the grip or at least mostly neutralize the choking effect of cutting off blood to the brain. All it takes is a little bit of space created and most of the choke effect is removed. Of course it is much harder to cleanly break a grip but it is often not that hard to just create a bit of space so you aren't in danger of passing out.

For someone 5-10 times stronger, there is little doubt in my mind that they could create enough space to avoid being choked out. And at such a lopsided strength ratio I find it hard to believe that they couldn't just rip the grip open. Hands can only hold against so much pressure no matter what you are grabbing or how you have your fingers locked. There may not be leverage to remove the opponent entirely but there is some available leverage to pull the arm or hand away. Between human contestants strengths are not usually so terribly lopsided so the choker has the advantage due to leverage and locked grip factors. That doesn't mean such a grip cannot be broken nor does it mean that relative strength doesn't matter at all. As I've said, I've broke out of chokes applied by black belts. My toughest opponent for chokes was actually a very flexible brown belt; he was so fluid.

Also, I would guess that chimps probably have muscular necks with the carotid artery (the main real target during chokes) more shielded by muscle than humans have. So even a well applied choke on a chimp might not have nearly as strong or fast an effect on chimps as it has on humans. Add to this the fact that chimps can easily reach their mouths with their hind legs (feet which are also hands; have you never seen a chimp feeding by using its hind legs to pass the food to its mouth?), and we see that a chimp could probably bring three or four hands and limbs to bear against the choker's two hands and arms. Shouldn't be hard at all for the chimp to break the grip. Also consider the body structure of a chimp...it doesn't look like you could easily grapevine its legs; they don't look like it would fit well into a grapevine control type of leg hold really.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:19 PM   #91
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Quote:
lol, this thread does an excellent job of showing who the MMA fan boys are.

I honestly can't believe anyone would pick the human. The human ego never ceases to amaze me.
I don't think the MMA fighters would stand a chance without special training. But given time to study and develop a chimp-fighting system that would exploit the chimp's weaknesses, I think humans could quickly get the upper hand in this contest. While strong and agile, chimps must be very predictable and would not be able to adapt well at all.

It's like when Kasparov lost to deep blue, even he admitted there were probably 10ish much lower ranked players who specialized in beating computers that probably could have won. While I don't think there are any human fighters who are just so good that they could naturally beat a chimp, I'm sure that with time, human ingenuity applied directly to the problem of "how to kill a chimp with your bare hands" would win out.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:26 PM   #92
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

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But in any fight between a chimp and a human, the chimp will be handicapped by its lack of awareness about what is going on
Why? Even a house cat or a well behaved dog will fake a bite if you move suddenly toward it. These are animmals that have been bread NOT to react this way toward humans for a couple thousand years. The Chimpanzee's instincts are not going to be "when something unexpected and dangerous occurs, act confused". They are going to be to lash out fight back or run. Instincts are faster than thought.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:37 PM   #93
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Yes, you can defend the choke. But it involves a lot of subtle techniques and maneuvering that you are trained in. You know exactly what to do to give yourself a bit more time and how to start working on breaking it. Do you think if you choked someone twice as strong as you that had never been choked before he would have any chance at all of getting out? A previous post argued that a chimp will not be more than 2 or 3 times the strength of a heavyweight UFC fighter.

An untrained person or chimp is not going to have the poise to find where the grip is locked and work on that in the precious seconds they have. They're going to panic, struggle, and flail.

As for how hard it is to grapevine them and how effective the actual choke would be on a chimp, that's pretty hard to judge.

Some other things:
- A 250lb UFC fighter's strikes are going to have more force than a 100lb chimp's. There's more technique to punching/kicking than you think. The fighter is able to leverage his entire body's strength and weight into the strike. A chimp will just sort of swing their arms, which aren't even that heavy.

- The idea of ripping body parts off is ridiculous. The chimps recorded a 1200lb pull or whatever by pushing against the wall with their legs and using their whole body (also saying each arm can do 1000lb of force at any angle is ridiculous). They'll never get this ideal leverage situation in a fight. If they pull your arm, you'll just fall over or something.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:39 PM   #94
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

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I think you are grossly exaggerating how strong a chimp is / how easy it is to rip someones limbs off.
Baboons rip dogs legs off in Africa. Large dogs bred for work on a far (ie defening cattle and hunting). Baboons are smaller than chimps.
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:48 PM   #95
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Quote:
An untrained person or chimp is not going to have the poise to find where the grip is locked and work on that in the precious seconds they have. They're going to panic, struggle, and flail.
The chimp may have a lot more time than that if it has a heavily muscled/protected neck that is not like a human's. Do they? I don't know but it wouldn't be surprising if they do.

A chimp, if it panics, may also bite. I doubt a human's grip could prevent the chimp from squirming enough to get a good bite in, and a good ripping bite on the forearm or hand or shoulder would likely be a hold breaker. Add the serious teeth to the greater muscular strength to having four hands versus two hands, and it strikes me as doubtful that a human could contain a chimp in a choke hold or in any wrestling hold for that matter.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:36 AM   #96
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

chuck liddel would smoke a chimp. the chimp would not be able to grapple or take chuck down and the chimp would get ktfo! now a grappling ufc champ like hughes would have major problems with the chimps strength and teeth. but chuck would take the poor little things head off.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:42 AM   #97
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

Quote:
chuck liddel would smoke a chimp. the chimp would not be able to grapple or take chuck down and the chimp would get ktfo! now a grappling ufc champ like hughes would have major problems with the chimps strength and teeth. but chuck would take the poor little things head off.
It sounds like you've watched some UFC guys in some fights. But how many chimps have you watched in some fights?
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:07 AM   #98
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

OK. At first I thought the UFC fighter would win hands down, but after reading some responses in the thread and reading several articles on the internet I changed my tune. In short, I think the chimp wins quite easily most of the time. I posed this question in my original response on page 1 and it seems silly to me now but.....

For those of you who think the UFC fighter wins easily by rear naked choke or whatever you're claiming against the chimp: How many of you think that the top level human fighters can beat down a full grown, male gorilla? Do you still think you can work submissions against the gorilla? Can it be knocked out in hand to hand combat? Some of you are saying that strength is neutralized by these BJJ moves, but at what point does technique give way to plain brute force. I've never wrestled with a mean 500lb gorilla but I find it hard to believe that you are choking or breaking any part of its body 1 on 1. Hijack over.
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:16 AM   #99
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

If a chimp is only ten times stronger than the average man than he is still at a huge disadvantage against chuck norris.

anyways, I think a fighting system designed to kill chimps might push the edge in the humans favor. Im pretty sure the chimp is going to go for the same type of attack everytime, kind of jumping on the human in an attempt to take them down. I think that there would be a way to exploit this possibly by looking at the openings the chimp gives when he jumps and looking for strikes or possibly being able to parry the chimp and catch them in some sort of hold/choke.
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:37 AM   #100
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Re: Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

people talking about putting chimps in chokeholds is just bad.

If a human was going to defeat a chimp, a chokehold is obviously not going to be the best shot
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