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Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers

07-29-2014 , 01:13 PM
Can someone experienced in range stuff check I'm on the right lines here? I'm trying to construct unexploitable ranges (i.e. we're not folding too much to flop, turn or river bets). Going to do an easy one first where the board is dry - if I get feedback that I'm doing it right and the maths looks fine I'll probably be able to give wet boards a try too by myself.

OK, the scenario is we're on the BTN, CO open raised.

My flatting range here is: JJ-22, AQs-ATs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-AJo, KQo, QJo. This works out as 148 combinations of hands.

Against a 3/4 pot continuation bet, villain needs folds 40% of the time or more for instant profit.

The flop comes A92r. Villain makes his cbet. We need to defend with 60% of 148 = 89 combos.

That works out as: JJ-99, 22, AQs-ATs, KJs+, T9s, 98s, AQo-AJo, KQo.

Already I'm noticing some points to consider. Should we really be calling a cbet on A92r with KJs? We 'have' to I suppose, but it feels like it might be bad, I'm not sure.

Anyway, we get to the turn with those 89 combos. Turn is a 5, and there's no flush draw on the board. Villain bets again.

We now need to defend with 60% of 89 = 53 combos. These are: JJ, 99, 22, AQs-ATs, AQo-AJo.

River is a 4. Villain fires another 3/4 pot bet. We need to defend 60% of 53 = 32 combos. This is 99, 22, AQs-AJs, AQo.

At the end it seems like a reasonable enough defending range on the river, but I'm struggling with the flop here. Do regs normally call a cbet on an A92r flop with the likes of KQ? Feels like we don't have anywhere near enough 'value' on this flop to call 60% of the time but then we're folding an exploitable amount.

Anyway does the maths look decent enough for this? Obviously it's a simple example as the board is bone dry, but if this is good I can try and work out ones for wet flops too.
Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote
07-29-2014 , 01:21 PM
Well I'm not an expert or anything, but as far as I know just calling the minimum frequency is not enough, given that our range doesnt have 100% equity. So if we call the exact minimun, Villan still profits from his equity.

But, Im not really good in that stuff so..
Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote
07-29-2014 , 01:25 PM
^yep, calling with just the minimum frequency means villain still autoprofits
Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote
07-29-2014 , 01:28 PM
For the river it works though, but it's almost impossible to find gto ranges I think. You would basicly need to reconstruct everything from the river to preflop play, just to know what you should call BUvsCO pre. Given that blinds still involved and Villan can use all kind of betsizes anywhere its pretty much impossible to do.

Doesnt help you to defend right % postflop if you cold call 100% range pre for example (just to make the point here).

Last edited by qwertz1; 07-29-2014 at 01:37 PM.
Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote
07-29-2014 , 02:01 PM
Flatting with QJs and JTs allows you to turn a straightdraw when an 8 drops on the turn. Looks good, though! As CalmDown said when flatting we need to defend with slightly more than the minimum since villain gets to see the next card and their bluffs usually have at least 15% equity.

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Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote
07-29-2014 , 04:52 PM
You shouldn't just be defending by calling.
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07-29-2014 , 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD77
You shouldn't just be defending by calling.
In some cases you should, and the scenario and ranges OP made up looks like a really good example of a spot where you shouldn't have a raising range
Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote
07-29-2014 , 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD77
You shouldn't just be defending by calling.
You should when the board is this dry.

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Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote
07-29-2014 , 10:31 PM
so you are only 3betting with QQ+/AK?
Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote
07-29-2014 , 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyStars
Already I'm noticing some points to consider. Should we really be calling a cbet on A92r with KJs? We 'have' to I suppose, but it feels like it might be bad, I'm not sure.
Sometimes it will be more profitable to continue postflop with ranges that allow your opponent to bluff atc, but that's mostly going to happen in cases where a flop is really bad for your range and you would get owned by the value portion of your opponents' range harder by defending vs. bluffs than you would by allowing atc bluffs. That being said, this isn't one of those cases.

You'll probably be pleasantly surprised at how often things work out for you even with the bottom of your range though, especially when in position.
Working out defending ranges on flop/turn/rivers Quote

      
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