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Old 01-28-2008, 10:18 PM   #26
corsakh
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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Originally Posted by sinderg View Post
a TAG's raising range is wider then his calling preflop range.
im folding a-9 if it folds round to me in the cutoff, but im raising it if 2 people limp.
You are one sick mofo.
And there is no such thing as tag or lag or a purplepuppyfish. The game is not formuable, its about thinking and adjusting.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:21 PM   #27
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

Post is dumb because I missed one letter in someone else's post. It was an important letter.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:22 PM   #28
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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im folding a-9 if it folds round to me in the cutoff, but im raising it if 2 people limp.
Huh?
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:27 PM   #29
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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Originally Posted by corsakh View Post
You are one sick mofo.
And there is no such thing as tag or lag or a purplepuppyfish. The game is not formuable, its about thinking and adjusting.
The game certainly is formuable. No one is arguing that playing by formula is optimal for your winrate, but it is good enough to make money at these limits. It's also a much better place for new players to start than by jumping in and trying to reinvent the wheel for every new situation they face.

That's why this thread is called "TAG 101" instead of "Master's Thesis class in Optimal Merged Range Bluffing Frequencies."

Also, I once saw a purplepuppyfish, so you are wrong. Although it was during college and I may or may not have been on hallucinogens.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:29 PM   #30
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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And there is no such thing as tag or lag or a purplepuppyfish. The game is not formuable, its about thinking and adjusting.
You don't play uNL do you? Well except for the purplepuppyfish, you nailed that one.

Cody
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:41 PM   #31
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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Originally Posted by Eureka! View Post
The game certainly is formuable. No one is arguing that playing by formula is optimal for your winrate, but it is good enough to make money at these limits. It's also a much better place for new players to start than by jumping in and trying to reinvent the wheel for every new situation they face.

That's why this thread is called "TAG 101" instead of "Master's Thesis class in Optimal Merged Range Bluffing Frequencies."

Also, I once saw a purplepuppyfish, so you are wrong. Although it was during college and I may or may not have been on hallucinogens.
Heard about fgators? Mmm... Thats what happens.

You can do all the right things in poker for all the wrong reasons. My brain is dead atm, I'll just give you an example from Jmans well.

He sweated some guy and the guy flops TPGK vs a tag OOP. He cbet the flop and gets called. Turn is a blank and he bets again, tag folds. Jman says well played, but why did you bet turn? The guys replies "This tag is always floating me so this time I wanted to let him know that I have something".

Its not enough just to get 98s otb and raise because someone on the forum said so. You need to know why you are doing this in every specific instance.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:42 PM   #32
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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You don't play uNL do you? Well except for the purplepuppyfish, you nailed that one.

Cody
I feel levelling but not sure on which story.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:55 PM   #33
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

Quote:
No one is arguing that playing by formula is optimal
Quote:
it is good enough to make money at these limits.
Quote:
It's also a much better place for new players to start than by jumping in and trying to reinvent the wheel for every new situation they face.
I think we're talking past each other. Unless fgators went busto playing formulaic poker at 50NL I fail to see why that example is relevent. I understand what you mean and agree that learning to think about each situation individually is crucial to advancing beyond the micros. I don't think that's what this thread is supposed to be about though.

Now, can we get back to class?
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:01 PM   #34
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

If you want to say FgATORS was playing by a formula I think you should probably say he was playing by the wrong formula.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:05 PM   #35
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinderg View Post
im folding a-9 if it folds round to me in the cutoff, but im raising it if 2 people limp.
Huh?
the general misconception is that a guy who raises from the cut-off or button is trying to stealing the actual blinds. im not stealing blinds, i want the blinds to call. i want them to call preflop miss the board (which they do like 70% of the time) and then fold to a c-bet because their out of position.
This is the same reason why i raise limper's with a wider range of hands then i would be if it just folded round to me, people fight over blind battles with a lot less then they fight over people isolating them in position.

hope that makes sence :P

Last edited by sinderg; 01-28-2008 at 11:10 PM. Reason: my spelling blows large
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:10 PM   #36
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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If you want to say FgATORS was playing by a formula I think you should probably say he was playing by the wrong formula.
He did not go broke IIRC. His graph looked very much up lifetime if you factor in r/b. Its just the regulars figured out his forumla and he was unable to adjust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinderg View Post
the general misconception is that a guy who raises from the cut-off or button is trying to stealing the actual blinds. im not stealing blinds, i want the blinds to call. i want them to call preflop miss the board (which they do like 70% of the time) and then fold to a c-bet because their out of position.
This is the same reason why i raise limper's with a wider range of hands then i would be if it just folded round to me, people fight over blind battles with a lot less then they fight over people isolating them in position.
See? Here is an example.

We raise preflop because the forum says so. Goot.
Why do we raise preflop? Dunno, lets make some reasons. Ah, we want blinds to call. Sounds good. We want blinds to call.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:12 PM   #37
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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Originally Posted by sinderg View Post
the general misconception is that a guy who raises from the cut-off or button is trying to stealing the actual blinds. im not stealing blinds, i want the blinds to call. i want them to call preflop miss the board (which they do like 70% of the time) and then fold to a c-bet because their out of position.
This is the same reason why i raise limper's with a wider range of hands then i would be if it just folded round to me, people fight over blind battles with a lot less then they fight over people isolating them in position.
No I knew you were going to say something like that....but it should generally be profitable to raise the CO/button when folded to there.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:34 PM   #38
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

Quote:
See? Here is an example.

We raise preflop because the forum says so. Goot.
Why do we raise preflop? Dunno, lets make some reasons. Ah, we want blinds to call. Sounds good. We want blinds to call.
Huh?
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:39 PM   #39
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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He did not go broke IIRC. His graph looked very much up lifetime if you factor in r/b. Its just the regulars figured out his forumla and he was unable to adjust.

No it's because he played poorly. He didn't win enough without going to a showdown. He was playing as though the point of poker was to showdown the best hand. He was able to breakeven playing like that at 200NL I believe and he made money from rakeback/FPP's.


Obviously adjusting to different situations and knowing why you're making the adjustment you're making in that situation is the best way to be. But it's still fine to have a certain set of standards......And it's pretty easy to beat micros with a "formula" of play...


And I think it's pretty good for players to start off beating micros with that formula and use it as a jumping off point from which to learn. Hopefully soon enough you leave the do this cause this said so in the backround and start learning....but having somewhere to start from is good IMO as long as you then begin o learn ranges and equity, etc. etc.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:56 PM   #40
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

here are the reasons for raising preflop explained: 1) because our hand likely has the best equity versus villains' calling ranges. 2) to take control over the betting action on the flop and perhaps later streets.. the aggressor will win more when no hands have connected with the board. 3) immediate profit stealing the blinds.. if you are the btn and sb folds 80% of the time to steals and bb folds 85% of the time to steals, it's basically profitable raising ATC until they adjust appropriately. You will find a lot of these types at the micro tables as the multi-tabling poor tag regs rarely pay attention quick enough to adjust to your blind steals. if reason #3 isn't profitable on a given table, revert back to using only reasons #1 and #2. If reason #2 and #3 isn't profitable on a given table (i.e. a poor LAG who will go to the felt with a marginal hand) then reason #1 should only be used. Hope that helps.
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:17 AM   #41
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

Dont make me give out detention
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:55 AM   #42
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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Dont make me give out detention
lol you mean due to lack of responses? I'm hoping my response was so spot on that nothing more needs to be said
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:04 AM   #43
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

Assuming stacks of 100BB or deeper what does a TAG doe pre-flop with hands like small pocket pairs in a raised pot? From the general feel of this thread, it seems like everyone would say either 3-bet or fold. Folding seems to give up a lot equity and 3-betting seems to move towards mindless agression rather than selective aggression.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:07 AM   #44
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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lol you mean due to lack of responses? I'm hoping my response was so spot on that nothing more needs to be said
Hmmm I assumed he meant how it was getting off topic especially because of corsakh and myself.


Sorry EMC. This thread was a pretty good idea. IMO though maybe find a few known very solid players who agree to each do a part and obviously have discussion on each part and then allow others to add. I think that might work better, and might be more credible cause 1 thread really can't stand intense debate on every single topic IMO.....and it might open up more interesting discussion based on what those players may say.


Just my opinion and hell it may not be possible to get enough players like that
to do this and in that case then it's better to try this than not.


Anyway sorry about the off topicness and w/e. I'll try to actually contribute better to this thread sometime in the next few days though I'm actually supposed to be a bit busy right now for a while so no promises for the near future.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:09 AM   #45
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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Assuming stacks of 100BB or deeper what does a TAG doe pre-flop with hands like small pocket pairs in a raised pot? From the general feel of this thread, it seems like everyone would say either 3-bet or fold. Folding seems to give up a lot equity and 3-betting seems to move towards mindless agression rather than selective aggression.

No way. Most of the time a TAG would call a raise with small pocket pairs and mostly play for set value though in some cases make some post-flop plays also.


Though also, occasionally in the blinds against a button raise from a positionally aware opponent I am fine with 3betting that pair.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:10 AM   #46
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

a TAG reviews his notes/HUD and position relative to the raiser to make these decisions and also if the raise is likely a steal or likely for value. In position it is ok to just flat call with small pocket pairs and ok to call OOP if villain is aggressive enough to felt top pair and overpair type hands. 3betting small pocket pairs should only be done if you have good reason to believe villain is stealing the blinds and will not play back at your 3bets preflop or your cbets postflop. Calling with small pocket pairs should definitely be done almost everytime when in position facing a 4xbb raise with 100bb stacks. 3betting those hands is spew unless you suspect someone is stealing the blinds liberally and will not play back at you once you show aggression.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:12 AM   #47
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
Hmmm I assumed he meant how it was getting off topic especially because of corsakh and myself.


Sorry EMC. This thread was a pretty good idea. IMO though maybe find a few known very solid players who agree to each do a part and obviously have discussion on each part and then allow others to add. I think that might work better, and might be more credible cause 1 thread really can't stand intense debate on every single topic IMO.....and it might open up more interesting discussion based on what those players may say.


Just my opinion and hell it may not be possible to get enough players like that
to do this and in that case then it's better to try this than not.


Anyway sorry about the off topicness and w/e. I'll try to actually contribute better to this thread sometime in the next few days though I'm actually supposed to be a bit busy right now for a while so no promises for the near future.

ahh I hardly noticed probably because I enjoy talking about anything having to do with poker. your posts are very intelligent from what I've seen lego and I always look forward to hearing your valuable opinions on the game of poker
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:32 AM   #48
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

What Makes a TAG?
Solid hand selection- TAGs typically play solid starting hands from all positions, loosing from the button. You will rarely see a TAG in a pot with 72o or other hands that don't have solid intrinsic value. Their range will increase in position, from a UTG range of about All PP, AJs+, AQo+, KQs, maybe a little SC or ATish hand to balance, and then a range of AllPP, Axs, Axo, K8s+, Q8s plus, all SC and Suited 1 gappers, all broadway, high offsuit connectors and 1 gappers.

Selective Aggression (AG in TAG)

TAGs will try and enter the pot with aggression. Never open-limping and trying to be the one putting the last raise in preflop. Conversely they will fold rather than call preflop alot which increases their aggro image as they appear as whenever they're in a a pot they're betting and raising.

TAGs will call raises with small and medium pocket pairs in and out of position if the implied odds justify a call. If a TAG raises with a small to medium pocket pair and is re-raised they will only call when getting 11.7 to 1 odds or greater to hit the set. With effective stack sizes of 100 BBs this means a fold is usually in order.
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Old 01-29-2008, 07:24 AM   #49
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

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Huh?
Well, I suggest you conduct a little experiment.

You want blinds and limpers to call if I understand correctly. What a better way to do that than to start minraising any two cards from late positions? Please report back if their "calling ranges" have improved and dont' forget to correlate it with your winrate. Good luck.

/end of offtopic
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Old 01-29-2008, 07:51 AM   #50
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Re: uNL University: Day 1- TAG 101

What about - a TAG will raise his strong draws as well as his strong made hands and understands the concept of fold equity.

He also understands situations when he doesnt have said fold equity against a calling station and will adjust accordingly
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