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Old 01-28-2008, 03:56 PM   #26
JackAll
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

There are good reasons for betting the flop.

Betting to 'take it down now' is not a good reason yes, it's better to lose the pot entirely
We have a made hand. Who says we will lose the hand entirely

Betting to 'rep the A' is not a good reason it's absolutely ridiculous, i agree. i have NEVER repped the ace and gotten away with it
What on earth is the point of repping an A here?

Betting for info is not a good reason it's better to play blind
Lol. Paying for info. Nice

Betting because 'we pay the same as checking and calling a bet on turn' is not a good reason you're right, aggression is never the best way to go in NL holdem
Unspecific quotes that don't apply here, nice argument

Betting to 'pretect against KQ/KJ/JQ' gutshot is not a good reason because we won't double barell, and we will give them 2 free cards with 10 outs to hit when they call. everyone plays that way, so you're right again
I don't even know what you mean by that. I doubt you do either

Betting cuz you bet pf and feel like c-betting automatically all the time is not a good reason continuation bets are the biggest myth in holdem
More quotes that don't apply. C-bets are to balance bluffs with value. This hand has no reason to bluff or to get value
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:59 PM   #27
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Last post for a while, but ...


There are good reasons for betting the flop.

Betting to 'take it down now' is not a good reason
Betting to 'rep the A' is not a good reason
Betting for info is not a good reason
Betting because 'we pay the same as checking and calling a bet on turn' is not a good reason
Betting to 'pretect against KQ/KJ/JQ' gutshot is not a good reason because we won't double barell, and we will give them 2 free cards with 10 outs to hit when they call.
Betting cuz you bet pf and feel like c-betting automatically all the time is not a good reason
Yes and no. You just cannot say we bet or we check in this particular situation beacause *insert any of the above*
(Excpet that we def bet to protect against K/Q/J/gutshot hitting. I don't quite follow why you have to drag second barrel into the argument)

Instead we estimate the EV of the action. When I said checking behind is too thin I mean that imo in general; the +EV stuff that comes along with checking behind doesn't make up for -EV stuff. (If you haven't read this thread https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=106195, check it out. It relates very closely to this situation.)

Now what hands do I check behind here? KK or a weak ace. Although I much rather check them behind on say A72r. So to put things into perspective; betting KK/Arag here is too thin (now in +EV scense) imo so I check them behind.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:59 PM   #28
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
There are good reasons for betting the flop.

Betting to 'take it down now' is not a good reason yes, it's better to lose the pot entirely
We have a made hand. Who says we will lose the hand entirely

Betting to 'rep the A' is not a good reason it's absolutely ridiculous, i agree. i have NEVER repped the ace and gotten away with it
What on earth is the point of repping an A here?

Betting for info is not a good reason it's better to play blind
Lol. Paying for info. Nice

Betting because 'we pay the same as checking and calling a bet on turn' is not a good reason you're right, aggression is never the best way to go in NL holdem
Unspecific quotes that don't apply here, nice argument

Betting to 'pretect against KQ/KJ/JQ' gutshot is not a good reason because we won't double barell, and we will give them 2 free cards with 10 outs to hit when they call. everyone plays that way, so you're right again
I don't even know what you mean by that. I doubt you do either

Betting cuz you bet pf and feel like c-betting automatically all the time is not a good reason continuation bets are the biggest myth in holdem
More quotes that don't apply. C-bets are to balance bluffs with value. This hand has no reason to bluff or to get value
to tell you the truth, that was a bit of sarcasm overall... but i guess you don't "get that" either.

but please, enlighten me. what is a good reason to check the flop? if i'm that off base, i'd love to know why.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:01 PM   #29
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by jb9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Flop

River

As I said:
After flop check behind, and after they see you call the turn, they will assume you will call again on the river. And so will often only bet if they 'want' you to call (ie they have a strong hand and want money from you out of it), so it is an easy fold.
I think some stuff we beat will bet the river (small pocket pairs, K9, J9). Depends on villain. I'd want to call a 1/2 PSB, but since he bet pot, meh, I guess fold.
Yes, this is a particularly good reason to bet and one I was hoping someone would eventually say.

I find that at higher limits (400nl and occasionally but rarely at 200nl) are people more likely to double barrel here if they bet the turn. I am wondering if people at 100nl and lower tend to do that? Double barreling is definitely representing a hand there, and most players 100nl and below make far more obvious bluffs than this one which would represent a hand quite well.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:05 PM   #30
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Yes, this is a particularly good reason to bet and one I was hoping someone would eventually say.

I find that at higher limits (400nl and occasionally but rarely at 200nl) are people more likely to double barrel here if they bet the turn. I am wondering if people at 100nl and lower tend to do that? Double barreling is definitely representing a hand there, and most players 100nl and below make far more obvious bluffs than this one which would represent a hand quite well.
i find it a little conspicuous that you claim to be a huge winning player ($22k in one month) and consistently play 100nl and 200nl, but you're worried about calling a or making a bet at the $.01/.02 nl table.
something smells off to me.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:07 PM   #31
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Yes, this is a particularly good reason to bet and one I was hoping someone would eventually say.

I find that at higher limits (400nl and occasionally but rarely at 200nl) are people more likely to double barrel here if they bet the turn. I am wondering if people at 100nl and lower tend to do that? Double barreling is definitely representing a hand there, and most players 100nl and below make far more obvious bluffs than this one which would represent a hand quite well.
there doesn't seem to be anything more insightful here then the bet the flop line. either way you've risked the $.10 to find out where you're at.

if i'm willing to call the .10, i'm more willing to bet the .10 ... situation given.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:08 PM   #32
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
to tell you the truth, that was a bit of sarcasm overall... but i guess you don't "get that" either.

but please, enlighten me. what is a good reason to check the flop? if i'm that off base, i'd love to know why.

Really? I didn't notice that it was sarcastic


Reasons to check flop - mostly from original post:

- A flop bet tends to fold out weaker hand and give money to stronger hands almost exactingly in this hand more than any other flop.

- They can also have a gutshot, but we are not betting blank turns, so they will get a free card and be able to bluff us effectively on the river when they miss, or have 10 outs to a stronger hand even if they don't hit their gutshot

- After checking flop, they will bluff a fair amount on the turn, so we get bluff money for the same cost as betting flop.

- After flop check behind, and after they see you call the turn, they will assume you will call again on the river. And so will often only bet if they 'want' you to call (ie they have a strong hand and want money from you out of it), so it is an easy fold against a lot of players.



I won't bother replying to your posts again if you are just being an azz for the sake of being an azz. There are good reason for not betting this flop and if you just want to justify your beliefs without thinking, then waste someone else's time.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:09 PM   #33
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post

if i'm willing to call the .10, i'm more willing to bet the .10 ... situation given.
jackpot !!!


thats why OP is weak-tight.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:10 PM   #34
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
i find it a little conspicuous that you claim to be a huge winning player ($22k in one month) and consistently play 100nl and 200nl, but you're worried about calling a or making a bet at the $.01/.02 nl table.
something smells off to me.
When did i say I got 22k in a month?

I play 200nl and 400nl

This hand is for a friend of mine, not me.
I thought it was worth discussion.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:12 PM   #35
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
When did i say I got 22k in a month?

I play 200nl and 400nl

This hand is for a friend of mine, not me.
I thought it was worth discussion.
i'm sorry. 27k in 4 months.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54/poker-beats-brags-variance/biggest-month-biggest-4-months-biggest-hand-graphs-stats-2838/
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:13 PM   #36
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpoker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
if i'm willing to call the .10, i'm more willing to bet the .10 ... situation given.
jackpot !!!


thats why OP is weak-tight.
If we check flop, we get bluffed a good percent of the time.
That adds a lot of EV since we are paying the same amount but now have the same result - plus bluffs from hands we beat.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:16 PM   #37
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

That was explained in the post immediately above your post:


Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
When did i say I got 22k in a month?

I play 200nl and 400nl

This hand is for a friend of mine, not me.
I thought it was worth discussion.
Haha ... so now you are looking for dirt on me? Nice one.
Btw that thread is 100% correct, and is quite old and I have continued the climb.

How about that HU match?
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:17 PM   #38
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
I find that at higher limits (400nl and occasionally but rarely at 200nl) are people more likely to double barrel here if they bet the turn. I am wondering if people at 100nl and lower tend to do that? Double barreling is definitely representing a hand there, and most players 100nl and below make far more obvious bluffs than this one which would represent a hand quite well.
I think the PSB on the river usually means villain has at least TP at 25NL and lower (although UB has a "bet pot" button, right?).

A 1/2 PSB is more often a bluff or "thin" value bet which is why I'd want to call that (and of course the odds are better).

The problem with this hand is that you don't want to put money in on 3 or even 2 streets postflop if you can avoid it. Against a villain who can double barrell bluff, you are in a bad spot.

Bet/fold (or shut down after getting called) the flop avoids that particular problem.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:17 PM   #39
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
If we check flop, we get bluffed a good percent of the time.
That adds a lot of EV since we are paying the same amount but now have the same result - plus bluffs from hands we beat.
OP, you seem to have missed my 2nd reply. I dont think that makes up for the disadvantages of checking behind (like getting bluffed of a better hand etc.). edit: not because what I say is always right but because you haven't adressed it with respect to -EV disadvantages of checking behind.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:19 PM   #40
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Id just like to thank OP for this thread, Ill add my thoughts somewhat later.

Just found something interesting in Bilbo san's cbet post:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...rt=1&vc=1&nt=3

Whether or not you bet a medium-strength hand should depend on the board texture and your opponent's tendencies with the range of hands that you are ahead of, especially if those tendencies are identical to when he holds hands that you are behind.

Board texture is safe, so theres no need to protect all that much, however its nl2 and ppl will call with kx and qx here some of the time.

When it comes to opponent tendencies, this is nl2, people will call with crap. However semi decent opponents will fold their worse hands. Also ppl at nl2 can be unpredictable, he can lead the next 2 streets with random crap or he can just check the nuts twice.

Imho what it comes down to cbetting this flop here is that is so convenient, altough maybe not optimal. You take down the pot, or give up, and move on, no difficult decisions with marginal hands later on.

Last edited by orlov; 01-28-2008 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:23 PM   #41
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
If we check flop, we get bluffed a good percent of the time.
That adds a lot of EV since we are paying the same amount but now have the same result - plus bluffs from hands we beat.
so they can't bluff twice? we ARE talking about nitty .01/.02 players... i've seen all ins from waaaaaaay worse than that at this limit.

at this limit, the best move is straight forward play. you can get tricky and peel a little deeper at 200nl, but it's simply not worth it at this level.

bet the flop. if you get raised or don't improve the turn, shut it down. a pair of 9's will check it to the river with you.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:23 PM   #42
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
If we check flop, we get bluffed a good percent of the time.
That adds a lot of EV since we are paying the same amount but now have the same result - plus bluffs from hands we beat.
and how can you fold river then?
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:26 PM   #43
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

uh i have to admit that I got somethings wrong here - I thought its NL10 and the preflop raise was to .70 and turn bet was a mbet and river bet another really small bet.

sorry don't mind the river fold anymore but still betting this flop is the best line.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:26 PM   #44
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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and how can you fold river then?
i haven't spent this much time thinking about a $.35 bet in a long time.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:26 PM   #45
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
so they can't bluff twice? we ARE talking about nitty? .01/.02 players... i've seen all ins from waaaaaaay worse than that at this limit.
Does not compute. ^^

Seriously though, I agree, esp at very low limits c-betting here is best play.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:45 PM   #46
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Originally Posted by S.Clause View Post
OP, you seem to have missed my 2nd reply. I dont think that makes up for the disadvantages of checking behind (like getting bluffed of a better hand etc.). edit: not because what I say is always right but because you haven't adressed it with respect to -EV disadvantages of checking behind.
I'll paste second reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Clause View Post
Yes and no. You just cannot say we bet or we check in this particular situation beacause *insert any of the above*
(Excpet that we def bet to protect against K/Q/J/gutshot hitting. I don't quite follow why you have to drag second barrel into the argument)

Instead we estimate the EV of the action. When I said checking behind is too thin I mean that imo in general; the +EV stuff that comes along with checking behind doesn't make up for -EV stuff. (If you haven't read this thread https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=106195, check it out. It relates very closely to this situation.)

Now what hands do I check behind here? KK or a weak ace. Although I much rather check them behind on say A72r. So to put things into perspective; betting KK/Arag here is too thin (now in +EV scense) imo so I check them behind.
Yeah, sorry I didn't see your second reply.

Deciding to bet or check is based on a balance of many reasons, of which each needs to have certain weight.

And yes, I do agree with you and that link is good. When you think about it A2 and KT are almost the same hand, save for a chance of a K/Q/J not being a threat anymore.

And yea, there is a distinction between A2/KK and TJ here, but the difference is more subtle and I haven't discussed this difference. I would like to discuss this further but it's 3:45am now and kickflip252 has worn me out with his time wasting posts.


I'd like to know how many of the people that said to c-bet would say to c-bet with A2 or KK here. I suspect close to 100%

But further the point, I would like to disucss the difference between A2 and TJ here and the action on the flop.

Anyway, I'm off to sleep
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:46 PM   #47
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Good thread. Especially like the Billy Madison quote.

Couple reasons I can think of to bet the flop:

Against loose passives I can see getting value here from any pair, any gutshot hands (maybe worse) that we beat. They may never bet their hands unless we are beaten.
* This is a common player type at very low limits

Vs aggressive players that can fire multiple streets with weaker hands when sensing weakness it will likely be better to bet the flop as well so we aren't bluffed out with the best hand.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:52 PM   #48
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

This is 2NL so
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Vs most players that can fire multiple streets with weaker hands while drooling it will likely be better to bet the flop as well so we aren't bluffed out with the best hand.
fyp
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:56 PM   #49
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

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Good thread.
Really? I've got a headache from wading through all the sewerage to get to something of use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Couple reasons I can think of to bet the flop:

Against loose passives I can see getting value here from any pair, any gutshot hands (maybe worse) that we beat. They may never bet their hands unless we are beaten.
* This is a common player type at very low limits

Vs aggressive players that can fire multiple streets with weaker hands when sensing weakness it will likely be better to bet the flop as well so we aren't bluffed out with the best hand.
Yep, I agree with this. Well said.
I almost forgot what a passive player because at my normal limit it's pretty normal to have every player with a AF 1.8+

And yea against very aggro players that can fire multiple barrels. I'm not sure if this occurs much or not at micro's tho.
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Old 01-28-2008, 05:17 PM   #50
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Really? I've got a headache from wading through all the sewerage to get to something of use.



Yep, I agree with this. Well said.
I almost forgot what a passive player because at my normal limit it's pretty normal to have every player with a AF 1.8+

And yea against very aggro players that can fire multiple barrels. I'm not sure if this occurs much or not at micro's tho.
see, one very important factor that you failed to take into account was WHO you were playing against.
when I move up, i'll ask you about how to play a hand against people with brains, knowledge and skill.
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