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Old 01-28-2008, 12:56 PM   #1
JackAll
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TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Damn ... converter for UB is screwed (Legoopoker.com converter used to work)
Anyone got one that works?


Anyway ... tell me how you would play any street differently


SB is at seat 0 with $2.06.
BB is at seat 1 with $3.45.
UTG is at seat 2 with $14.70.
MP is at seat 3 with $1.45.
CO is at seat 4 with $1.56.
Hero (BU) is at seat 5 with $1.97.
The button is at seat 5.

SB posts the small blind of $.01.
BB posts the big blind of $.02.




Pre-flop (Hero has J T):

3 folds. Hero raises to $.07. 1 folds. BB calls.

Flop (board: 4 A T):

BB checks. Hero checks.

Turn (board: 4 A T 9):

BB bets $.10. Hero calls.

River (board: 4 A T 9 Q):

BB bets $.35. Hero folds.



Here is my thoughts on the hand:

A flop bet tends to fold out weaker hand and give money to strong hands.
There is an argument to protection against Kx/Qx hands hitting on the turn, but I think the chance of that is low enough such that checking flop for reaons already stated seem better.

They can also have OESD, but we are not betting blank turns, so they will get a free card and be able to bluff us effectively on the river.

After flop check behind, and after they see you call the turn, they will assume you will call again on the river. And so will often only bet if they 'want' you to call (ie they have a strong hand and want money from you out of it), so it is an easy fold.

Anyway, info me up on your thoughts.

Last edited by JackAll; 01-28-2008 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:01 PM   #2
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

you made a raise. hit the flop and checked? why?

then BB bet out and you flat called (ok move)
if you called thinking you might be best why fold the river?

next time bet the flop with a c-bet. if he calls or raises, shut it down and move on.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:10 PM   #3
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Flop

Betting makes weaker hands fold. Explain how that is good.
Betting does not fold out stronger hands. Explain how giving more money to better hands is good.
Betting doesn't protect against draws because that is the the driest flop in the world.

Explain the benefits of betting this flop please?

Turn
We checked turn, and so represented a weak hand. He will bet and try and steal with any two cards. Our hand could still be good based on this situation. I didn't call with intension of calling on river. If that was the case, I would have just bet flop.

River

As I said:
After flop check behind, and after they see you call the turn, they will assume you will call again on the river. And so will often only bet if they 'want' you to call (ie they have a strong hand and want money from you out of it), so it is an easy fold.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:29 PM   #4
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

raise the turn.

as played you have to call the river.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:33 PM   #5
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Just on the flop: You raised preflop, therefore it is entirely plausable that you have an Ace. If you bet here, he will fold if he didn't hit. He calls or raises, you can be pretty sure your midpair is no good. Probably 70% of the time they will just fold here.

You're playing this as if you have some crap draw, not a pair. You don't seem attached to your hand - I can't blame this guy for betting. You really just need to bet this flop, even if you don't have a pair. Everything would be a lot easier.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:40 PM   #6
Albert Moulton
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

I cb this flop every time then give up if I don't improve significantly on the turn (i.e. turn a T).

As played for the check behind on the flop, I think you might as well fold on the turn. He most likely has Ax rather than a bluff. I suppose if you have a read that he "always" tries to steal abandoned flops, then calling the turn with the intention of folding to a river bet is ok. But I really think you should bet the flop and give up if you don't win or improve.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:42 PM   #7
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Bet flop please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Flop

Betting makes weaker hands fold. Explain how that is good.
1) You win the pot.
2) weaker hands do not always fold here. Smaller T's call, gutshot's call, backdoor flushes sometimes call, small pp's sometimes call...... This is micros, people call, allot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Betting does not fold out stronger hands. Explain how giving more money to better hands is good.
Giving money to better hands is good because you are going to do it anyway, on the turn. Better to do it here -
i) for a cheaper price.
ii) gaining more information.
iii) regaining control of the hand.

If we bet the flop and are called, we are almost always checked to on the turn getting to see two more cards for the flop price, we also learn much more about villains hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Betting doesn't protect against draws because that is the the driest flop in the world.
Wrong. Not compared against our hand.

KJ, KQ, QK, K2, K3, K4, K5, K6, K7, K8, K9, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q7, Q8 and Q9 are drawing to between 3 and 9 outs to overtake us, and before we say we want hands we are ahead of us sticking around, most of the above either pay to draw, or are only going to call a bet if they overtake us anyway. You are only going to get Q6s's chips in the middle if he gets in front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Flop

Explain the benefits of betting this flop please?
I believe I have.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:56 PM   #8
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Flop

Betting makes weaker hands fold. Explain how that is good.
you win the pot. if his hand was that weak, you're not winning more anyways. if he has something like a K in his hand, he can beat you if you give him a free card

Betting does not fold out stronger hands. Explain how giving more money to better hands is good.
you find out right away with a $.10 bet instead of getting double barrell bluffed

Betting doesn't protect against draws because that is the the driest flop in the world.
if he has 2 diamonds (which is possible since he bet when another diamond appeared) you just gave him a free card to a flush draw

Explain the benefits of betting this flop please?
you raised pre flop, so rep the ace.
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:00 PM   #9
Albert Moulton
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
Flop
Explain the benefits of betting this flop please?
you raised pre flop, so rep the ace.
QFT
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:13 PM   #10
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

lol, really, just lol
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:16 PM   #11
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post

River

As I said:
After flop check behind, and after they see you call the turn, they will assume you will call again on the river. And so will often only bet if they 'want' you to call (ie they have a strong hand and want money from you out of it), so it is an easy fold.

if he checks the river are you betting or checking behind?
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:18 PM   #12
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

what is QFT? i can't find it anywhere
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:24 PM   #13
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
what is QFT? i can't find it anywhere
quoted for truth
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:29 PM   #14
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

This a bit too thin to be checking behind. C-Bet for protection (and if villain is huge donk for some value). Checking here behind (to induce etc.) can get you into trouble should villain deside to bluff when J/Q/K hits.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:26 PM   #15
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitch1978 View Post
Bet flop please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Flop

Betting makes weaker hands fold. Explain how that is good.
1) You win the pot.
2) weaker hands do not always fold here. Smaller T's call, gutshot's call, backdoor flushes sometimes call, small pp's sometimes call...... This is micros, people call, allot.
Big deal if we win the pot. We are ahead of all hands that fold, who often have 3-4 outs at best. Why do we need to win it against hands we are way ahead of?

I don't think people call enough with weaker hands with an A on the board to warrant a value bet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hitch1978 View Post
Bet flop please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Betting does not fold out stronger hands. Explain how giving more money to better hands is good.
Giving money to better hands is good because you are going to do it anyway, on the turn. Better to do it here -
i) for a cheaper price.
ii) gaining more information.
iii) regaining control of the hand.

If we bet the flop and are called, we are almost always checked to on the turn getting to see two more cards for the flop price, we also learn much more about villains hand.
This is not correct. If we check flop, it costs us the same against an Ace, but we also get money from bluffs. This is a big difference. Think about it. I suspect it may take a while for you to understand. Possibly the rest of your life.

Betting for info. That's pretty clever. Almost as good as raising for info. wtf.

Who gives a crap about gaining control of this particular hand. Don't add nonsensical reasons to get people to come around to what you believe.

And who cares if we get 2 free cards. We have 5 outs. That is d!ck all. And he may check turn if we check flop also giving us a second free card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitch1978 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post


Betting doesn't protect against draws because that is the the driest flop in the world.
Wrong. Not compared against our hand.

KJ, KQ, QK, K2, K3, K4, K5, K6, K7, K8, K9, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q7, Q8 and Q9 are drawing to between 3 and 9 outs to overtake us, and before we say we want hands we are ahead of us sticking around, most of the above either pay to draw, or are only going to call a bet if they overtake us anyway. You are only going to get Q6s's chips in the middle if he gets in front.
K2-K9, Q2-Q9 do not pay for a draw. Honestly - wtf?
The last 2 hands are drawing to 10 outs, and will only fold turn if we double barell, which we won't. So they get 2 free cards with 10 outs to beat us. This is a god forsaken reason to bet the flop. In fact, this is a stronger reason to not bet the flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitch1978 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Explain the benefits of betting this flop please?
I believe I have.
Lol. Nice work genius.

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:27 PM   #16
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
Flop

Betting makes weaker hands fold. Explain how that is good.
you win the pot. if his hand was that weak, you're not winning more anyways. if he has something like a K in his hand, he can beat you if you give him a free card
So a 3/46 chance his K or Q hits on the turn is reason enough to bet the flopm while folding all weaker hands and giving a c-bet to all Ax hands?
I'll take that horrible risk of a K or Q hitting on the turn against this very small part of his range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
Betting does not fold out stronger hands. Explain how giving more money to better hands is good.
you find out right away with a $.10 bet instead of getting double barrell bluffed
You really think a lot of players double barrell bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
Betting doesn't protect against draws because that is the the driest flop in the world.
if he has 2 diamonds (which is possible since he bet when another diamond appeared) you just gave him a free card to a flush draw
And now he has a chance to bluff his flush draw on the turn, so we can call and he has a 1/5 chance of hitting. And when he misses, he saw us call turn, so is less likely to try bluff river (imo)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
Explain the benefits of betting this flop please?
you raised pre flop, so rep the ace.
For what purpose? To fold out weaker hands?

Last edited by JackAll; 01-28-2008 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:28 PM   #17
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by deegs85 View Post
Just on the flop: You raised preflop, therefore it is entirely plausable that you have an Ace. If you bet here, he will fold if he didn't hit. He calls or raises, you can be pretty sure your midpair is no good. Probably 70% of the time they will just fold here.
So I should bet specifically for the sake of folding worse hands and we give more money to better hands?

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonpoker View Post
raise the turn.

as played you have to call the river.
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Moulton View Post
I cb this flop every time then give up if I don't improve significantly on the turn (i.e. turn a T).

As played for the check behind on the flop, I think you might as well fold on the turn. He most likely has Ax rather than a bluff. I suppose if you have a read that he "always" tries to steal abandoned flops, then calling the turn with the intention of folding to a river bet is ok. But I really think you should bet the flop and give up if you don't win or improve.
So you bet the flop, fold out weaker hands, are called mainly by an Ax while you hope to hit your 5-outer? Did I get that right?

How do you know he is more likely to have AX than a bluff?


Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Clause View Post
This a bit too thin to be checking behind.
This stands out from the rest of the horrhendous comments that lack any sort of sense whatsoever.

What hand is not too thin to check behind here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
if he checks the river are you betting or checking behind?
That is an interesting thought, but I prefer to focus on the flop at this point.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:33 PM   #18
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Last post for a while, but ...


There are good reasons for betting the flop.

Betting to 'take it down now' is not a good reason
Betting to 'rep the A' is not a good reason
Betting for info is not a good reason
Betting because 'we pay the same as checking and calling a bet on turn' is not a good reason
Betting to 'pretect against KQ/KJ/JQ' gutshot is not a good reason because we won't double barell, and we will give them 2 free cards with 10 outs to hit when they call.
Betting cuz you bet pf and feel like c-betting automatically all the time is not a good reason


Like I said, there are definitely good reasons for betting this flop, but not one person has given a good reason. You all seem to like to post for the sake of posting something and sounding right. I'd like to hear from someone who has the ability to think.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:37 PM   #19
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

your weak tight and why to post a hand if you "are right" ?Don't think people will bother to give you advice anymore.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:42 PM   #20
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
That is an interesting thought, but I prefer to focus on the flop at this point.

you actually seem more focused on proving that your poor play is correct.


I take back everything I said. you are absolutely 100% correct. please continue to play your way... do you play on stars? what's your screen name?
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:46 PM   #21
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Haha @ being weak tight

I'm waiting for a worthwhile reason for betting.

Everyone says the same thing because they read it somewhere at some point and are now repeating it ad nauseum without thought. I would prefer this type of person would not bother giving their advice.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:48 PM   #22
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickflip252 View Post
you actually seem more focused on proving that your poor play is correct.


I take back everything I said. you are absolutely 100% correct. please continue to play your way... do you play on stars? what's your screen name?
No, I'm not bent on proving that. I do believe a c-bet is important here in certain situations. I am waiting to hear some of those reasons, but no one has given any worthwhile responses.

If you hop on UB, I will play you HU up to 200nl. PM me.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:49 PM   #23
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

There are good reasons for betting the flop.

Betting to 'take it down now' is not a good reason yes, it's better to lose the pot entirely

Betting to 'rep the A' is not a good reason it's absolutely ridiculous, i agree. i have NEVER repped the ace and gotten away with it

Betting for info is not a good reason it's better to play blind

Betting because 'we pay the same as checking and calling a bet on turn' is not a good reason you're right, aggression is never the best way to go in NL holdem

Betting to 'pretect against KQ/KJ/JQ' gutshot is not a good reason because we won't double barell, and we will give them 2 free cards with 10 outs to hit when they call. everyone plays that way, so you're right again

Betting cuz you bet pf and feel like c-betting automatically all the time is not a good reason continuation bets are the biggest myth in holdem


Like I said, there are definitely good reasons for betting this flop, but not one person has given a good reason. You all seem to like to post for the sake of posting something and sounding right. I'd like to hear from someone who has the ability to think. the only reason i would bet the flop is to win the hand, but apparently that's dumb. so i'll just do what you say cause obviously you have a yeoman's grasp of this game, whereas i am a lowly n00b
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:51 PM   #24
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
Haha @ being weak tight

I'm waiting for a worthwhile reason for betting.

Everyone says the same thing because they read it somewhere at some point and are now repeating it ad nauseum without thought. I would prefer this type of person would not bother giving their advice.
I said it cause it's what's worked for me more often than not.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:52 PM   #25
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Re: TJs hits second pair on dry flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
River

As I said:
After flop check behind, and after they see you call the turn, they will assume you will call again on the river. And so will often only bet if they 'want' you to call (ie they have a strong hand and want money from you out of it), so it is an easy fold.
I think some stuff we beat will bet the river (small pocket pairs, K9, J9). Depends on villain. I'd want to call a 1/2 PSB, but since he bet pot, meh, I guess fold.
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