[MID] Thoughts on Not Solver Approved Bluff Line - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem 2(BB)
HERO ($247.68) [VPIP: 29% | PFR: 24.2% | AGG: 36.6% | Flop Agg: 41.5% | Turn Agg: 33.9% | River Agg: 37.2% | 3Bet: 11.5% | 4Bet: 14.1% | Cold Call: 9.2% | Hands: 326900]
HJ ($200) [VPIP: 16.7% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 50% | Hands: 13]
CO ($203.54) [VPIP: 40% | PFR: 30% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 11]
BTN ($492.97) [VPIP: 15.8% | PFR: 15.8% | AGG: 66.7% | Flop Agg: 100% | Turn Agg: 100% | River Agg: 0% | 3Bet: 33.3% | 4Bet: 0% | Hands: 20]
SB ($446.19) [VPIP: 42.1% | PFR: 31.6% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 21]

Dealt to Hero: Q

HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Raises To $5, SB Folds, HERO Calls $3

Hero SPR on Flop: [22.06 effective]
Flop ($11): 6

HERO Checks, BTN Bets $3.45 (Rem. Stack: $484.52), HERO Calls $3.45 (Rem. Stack: $239.23)

Turn ($17.90): 6

HERO Checks, BTN Bets $12.76 (Rem. Stack: $471.76), HERO Raises To $63.80 (Rem. Stack: $175.43), BTN Calls $51.04 (Rem. Stack: $420.72)

River ($145.50): 6

HERO Bets $175.43 (allin)

Quote

03-13-2024 , 01:17 PM

AskZandar

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,725

The problem with a lot of these bluffs is that it's so hard for you to have any value at all.

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03-13-2024 , 01:50 PM

FreakDaddy

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Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 18,062

Is K9/66/44 trying to get Kx to stack off in a BTN vs BB spot? Just my opinion, but I'm not a big fan of spots where you don't have a ton of value, and there's flush draws that whiffed. For whatever reason, people see flushes more than they see straight whiffs. I guess the combos are easier to see for most people. Hope it worked... not a fan here though.

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03-13-2024 , 03:46 PM

Haizemberg93

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Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 7,255

Spot is not over folded, opponent seems very tight, your blokcers are trash i don't see any super compelling reason to put stack in.

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03-13-2024 , 03:56 PM

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haizemberg93

Spot is not over folded, opponent seems very tight, your blokcers are trash i don't see any super compelling reason to put stack in.

Why do you think the river is not overfolded?

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03-13-2024 , 04:47 PM

Kendoo

adept

Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 741

if its not solver approved it is spew as you normally always take the solver to show how right you are

As a coach it would be good if you can tell by yourself what is the right play. I would not take a coach who always asks the forum if a play is good or not. This is ridiculous…

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03-13-2024 , 05:16 PM

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendoo

if its not solver approved it is spew as you normally always take the solver to show how right you are

As a coach it would be good if you can tell by yourself what is the right play. I would not take a coach who always asks the forum if a play is good or not. This is ridiculous…

So coaches aren't allowed to post hands.....got it.

And you lost me after the bolded part.

Kendoo please do me a favor and stop following me around posting in my threads like a fanboy. You offer nothing of value to the forum, I'm surprised you aren't permabanned tbh.

Thank you.

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03-13-2024 , 05:21 PM

pokerfan655

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,387

Hard to rep much here and you probably always get snapped off unless he has diamonds

Quote

03-13-2024 , 06:22 PM

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan655

Hard to rep much here and you probably always get snapped off unless he has diamonds

You can't say this with any conviction unless you know the turn spot.

Here we go:

Is turn over folded/under folded/GTO?

If you can't answer this you can't talk about the river intelligently.

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03-13-2024 , 06:39 PM

#10

endi

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 251

when everyone primarily overbets ott here their turn sizing seems like it often only consists of greedy weak Kx and 9xdd or so (maybe KK exactly too, w/e) and if all their stronger hands and bluffs go in the more natural overbet sizing the counters to this weak sizing and also to their turn check backs are kinda insane, but fun

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03-13-2024 , 06:54 PM

#11

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by endi

A voice of reason!

I'm your Avatar.

Also in a month or so I'll reverse the HH and everyone will fold KQ+ here OTT by everyone saying that this line isn't EV+ and they call because I'm not "representing anything" (again not a valid reason).

I actually don't know definitively if it's an EV+ play (although I have high probability it is) but the reasoning leaves a lot to be desired.

Let's put it this way. If I'm paying someone to coach me and they say "you're not representing anything!" I immediately am asking for a refund and trying to end the coaching session early. This is pre-solver thinking.

Last edited by DooDooPoker; 03-13-2024 at 07:04 PM.

Quote

03-13-2024 , 08:02 PM

#12

Haizemberg93

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If they fold KQ ott what is there to fold out otr?

Quote

03-13-2024 , 08:22 PM

#13

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haizemberg93

If they fold KQ ott what is there to fold out otr?

Wait you know they overcall turn right?

I thought you knew this since you said they don't overfold river with such conviction but I'm used to people spewing nonsense on this forum.

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03-13-2024 , 08:34 PM

#14

Haizemberg93

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Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 7,255

:0
No, I'm just spewing nonsense.

Quote

03-13-2024 , 08:35 PM

#15

newguyhere

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I would think they overfold OTT which to me makes their continuing range stronger.

Quote

03-13-2024 , 08:43 PM

#16

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguyhere

I would think they overfold OTT which to me makes their continuing range stronger.

And that would be incorrect.

Okay I'll post results tomorrow.

Quote

03-13-2024 , 08:52 PM

#17

newguyhere

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

And that would be incorrect.

Okay I'll post results tomorrow.

That they overfold OTT or their continuing range is stronger?

Quote

03-13-2024 , 09:00 PM

#18

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguyhere

That they overfold OTT or their continuing range is stronger?

They overcall turn

Quote

03-13-2024 , 10:23 PM

#19

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haizemberg93

:0
No, I'm just spewing nonsense.

Yeah it's okay, the problem is most people think your nonsense is factual because you are one of the better posters on here.

Quote

03-14-2024 , 06:21 AM

#20

Haizemberg93

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Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 7,255

Ty ��
I'm trying to make games easier for me by giving nonsense and you ruined my plans!

On a serious note, maybe it's difference between sites or maybe I'm miss remembering (very possible), last time i check regs in my pool didn't over fold river vs this line.

Quote

03-14-2024 , 06:53 AM

#21

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,584

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haizemberg93

jesus christ.

There is no "difference of sites" this has already been proven 10x over. Every site is more or less equal.

No there is no mis-remembering. There is no pool difference.

Just accept you didn't know the spot! It's fine to be wrong.

Quote

03-14-2024 , 09:59 AM

#22

pokerfan655

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,387

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

You can't say this with any conviction unless you know the turn spot.

Here we go:

Is turn over folded/under folded/GTO?

If you can't answer this you can't talk about the river intelligently.

I don't know why you start threads about hands if you're going to come to conclusions based off of solvers/data and then ask for opinions. If you think you have the data to answer these spots then why start the thread?

Quote

03-14-2024 , 10:27 AM

#23

InfiniteLand23456

newbie

Join Date: Mar 2024 Posts: 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Let's put it this way. If I'm paying someone to coach me and they say "you're not representing anything!" I immediately am asking for a refund and trying to end the coaching session early. This is pre-solver thinking.

You show me this hand and I would ask for a refund too. Looks like we found common ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan655

Was wondering the same. It's not solver approved so what are we even arguing here? I get this monkey is MDA obsessed but we're not all sitting on 250m datamined hands.

Quote

03-14-2024 , 11:14 AM

#24

AskZandar

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,725

The line might be overfolded, but the board looks like one where you'll get looked up too often, and obv it will be really easy for most people to overbluff the river.

Quote

03-14-2024 , 11:34 AM

#25

YanasaurBBQ

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,119

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Wait you know they overcall turn right?

I thought you knew this since you said they don't overfold river with such conviction but I'm used to people spewing nonsense on this forum.

I agree with you on them under folding turn. Because i am often very surprised when i take a turn XR line that should be very credible and I get called much lighter than I expect to be when I see villain's hand. I think he folds everything on the river except kings up and sets so you can probably get this through quite a bit.

The one thing I dont like is having the diamond in our hand bc we are blocking villain having QT, QJ, Q9 diamonds combo draws that will all be turn calls.

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