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Old 07-23-2008, 07:43 AM   #26
BobboFitos
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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and how can we get bobbo's book?
you can't, atleast not right now.

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Originally Posted by berserk View Post
Man, saying A4s > AJo is so lol.
glad to hear you weigh in w/ such a definitive argument.

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Originally Posted by MatthewRyan View Post
Im having trouble coming up with how A4s utg can be > Ajo. AJo will make dominated pairs, a lot; while A4s will not, and considering when we have a good draw it will be hard to play oop. Bobbo,MDMA, id love to hear your thoughts.
The truth is the difference in EV (AJo vs A4s in a vacuum) from say the 2nd seat is very marginal - both show profit (against nearly any lineup) and therefore should be opened w. near 100% frequency (I could maybe see some lineups where they are no longer profitable, so it's not 100% type deal) and neither will make a good deal of money. Buuuuuuut here are some thoughts:
1. Neither can stand a 3bet (unless people are maniacs or poor players, against the maniac you can defend AJo profitably and against a really bad player who telegraphs his hand as say very strong and it's a small reraise A4s can maybe be defended profitably)
2. As 4bet bluff shoves/etc. they have close to the same equity against felting ranges
3. Vs. ranges that just call a pfr, A4s plays better
4. It'll be easier to eek out big value while deep with A4s, while AJo is essentially always a "mid pot" type hand
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:09 PM   #27
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
3. Vs. ranges that just call a pfr, A4s plays better
4. It'll be easier to eek out big value while deep with A4s, while AJo is essentially always a "mid pot" type hand
Great points.. A4s is better not because straight up it beats AJo since these two hands aren't in a hand together... but that against ranges that call you and assuming you hit the flop either by making a hand or a big draw A4s plays better.

But in LP though, do we want to play A4s PF differently from AJo because if called, on the flop we'd be facing the narrower ranges that would call our PF raise OOP, and yet it's compensated by us acting last? Do we raise both hands PF IP as in 3bet? would we _ever_ call a 4bet IP with these hands if stacks are deep?
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:16 PM   #28
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Basically, pairing the J with AJo has so much more value than pairing the 4 has with A4s, especially because you dominate many (suited) Js in other people's calling ranges, so I disagree that A4s plays better against a range that just calls. As far as pairing the A, they do not perform that differently, but AJ does dominate Axs hands that called preflop and will usually get about 2 streets of value. Only deepstacked do I potentially agree that A4s might be better than AJo.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:06 PM   #29
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Bobbo: "3. Vs. ranges that just call a pfr, A4s plays better" Why?
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:24 PM   #30
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

+1 for the above two posts. Seems like the vast majority of the time that an A doesn't flop your gonna be in better shape with AJo. You'll hit sneaky draws with A4s sometimes but I don't think that makes up for the J pairs, not to mention the nut outs you have when you cbet flops with broadway cards that you missed and 3 added outs when you cbet an underflop. Also, while I can see the argument that A4s is better deep, your as likely to be against a short opponent as you are to be deep with one imo (at 2/4 and 3/6), and you obv want AJo against -100bbs.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:40 PM   #31
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Blah, just reading this topic of the title made me so interested to find out what could be inside, and it hasn't disappointed
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:44 PM   #32
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

for sure...good ****
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:16 PM   #33
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Agree with beserk and I still would take AJo over A4s deep.

Bobbo saying A4s plays better against cold calling ranges is laughable to me.

I even disagree that A4s is profitable to play from early position as a default.
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:20 PM   #34
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

This just clearly depends on the lineup. AJo is a more valuable hand than A4s when playing with donk calling stations, because you can valuebet more frequently, but A4s is DEFINITELY more valuable in a tough lineup.
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:39 PM   #35
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

buddy, please say WHY "A4s is DEFINITELY more valuable in a tough lineup." this is so obv, cuz im not seeing it
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Old 07-27-2008, 12:56 PM   #36
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Funny thread. Many ppl inserting some statements as definite facts. Here my opinions :

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A2-A5 are stronger hands then A6 and A7 afaik
Not true. Diffrence is smal for most situations. There are some where a5 is better there are others where a7 is

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Suited connectors >> suited aces below A9s-A8s. It's not remotely close.
Wow I would call it bs of the year if not for the man behind the statement...
I will just say "I strongly disagree".

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Suited connectors >> suited aces below A9s-A8s. It's not remotely close.
With this I agree at least if we are talking about HU pots.

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Vs. ranges that just call a pfr, A4s plays better
Wow. Another bs of the year if not for the man behind the statement...
Again : I strongly disagree.

The problem with those statements is they are very difficult to prove/disprove so anybody can say anything.
Some good argument would be huge db of winning players.
Other good argument is making a lot of simulations with generic players using common NL strategies. I did a lot of those and I am convinced that Axs is better than sc's by a ton and that AJ is better than A small xs but a huge margin too.
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Old 07-27-2008, 01:16 PM   #37
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Originally Posted by MatthewRyan View Post
buddy, please say WHY "A4s is DEFINITELY more valuable in a tough lineup." this is so obv, cuz im not seeing it
i was sort of hoping for an answer to this as well, so ill give it a little bump. i think i know, but ill save it so i dont look like an idiot.
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Old 07-27-2008, 02:38 PM   #38
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Originally Posted by Kermit View Post
i was sort of hoping for an answer to this as well, so ill give it a little bump. i think i know, but ill save it so i dont look like an idiot.
i think what people are getting at is that a hand like A4s has less dificult decisions against people that might put you to the test

there are many flops with A4s where the hand sorta plays itself, or rather, you can play it in a number of ways and make money

eg - you flop the NFD. you can play it agressively and get it in on the flop against a tough player and be in pretty good shape

the flip side is that AJ makes stronger pairs, but when you raise UTG with AJo and a tough player calls otb AJo will play pretty much the same as A4s when the board comes Axx and you get action, because the guy is unlikely to be playing a hand like A9 where you dominate him

however, AJ dominates alot of Jx hands that people do like to play so you can make alot of money against JTs type hands on Jxx flops so i wouldn't really say that A4s is that much better to open
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Old 07-27-2008, 04:41 PM   #39
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
Funny thread. Many ppl inserting some statements as definite facts. Here my opinions :



Not true. Diffrence is smal for most situations. There are some where a5 is better there are others where a7 is



Wow I would call it bs of the year if not for the man behind the statement...
I will just say "I strongly disagree".



With this I agree at least if we are talking about HU pots.



Wow. Another bs of the year if not for the man behind the statement...
Again : I strongly disagree.

The problem with those statements is they are very difficult to prove/disprove so anybody can say anything.
Some good argument would be huge db of winning players.
Other good argument is making a lot of simulations with generic players using common NL strategies. I did a lot of those and I am convinced that Axs is better than sc's by a ton and that AJ is better than A small xs but a huge margin too.
Something is wrong with your simulations. To conclude that AJo >>> A4s is lol wow.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:47 PM   #40
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Something is wrong with your simulations. To conclude that AJo >>> A4s is lol wow.
Why ?
I saw some 100k+ hand db's from winning players between 1/2NL to 5/10NL and they make more with AJo than with low Axs.
It seems very natural to me. Holdem is a game of top pair. Unless you are playing vs donks who only give action with tptk+ if they are raised on the flop or vs 2barrels you will win a lot small/medium sized pots with top pair or middle pair with good kicker.

Old thinking that suited connectors are better than offsuit brodways comes from times when ppl were folding like crazy to continuation bets and flop raises. It's not the case anymore. Small pots weight a lot more these days than big ones and AJ is very good hand to win a lot of them.

It would be nice if people post they stat with AJ and A7s-A2s and say 98s-54s. We could have somethng to work with then.

EDIT : I am talking about 100BB holdem. I didn't make any analysis/simulations/thinking for 200BB+ holdem and I have no opinion about the matter in such game.
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:39 PM   #41
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

I didn't realise your simulations were based on real player data. The sample will be biased because the way people play hands diverges from what is "correct" even if you take the average of winning player's strategy. For example people will play AJo very strongly and thus win a few more nonshowdown pots, in spots where having another hand wouldn't matter that much.

Even today holdem is a game of rare showdowns. Small to medium non-showdown hands are a central part of winrate. I don't agree with your argument for small showdown pots being more valuable these days. With so much raising and 2-3 barreling it is harder to get marginal hands to showdown. NL is a game where hands that can be played for stacks are the most valuable, and that is true even more so in a game with lots of bluffing and aggressive play. So while I agree that AJo today is better than AJo 3 years ago, I don't think that puts it way better than A4s. They are fairly close now, whereas on party 2/4 3 years ago I'd take A4s by a long distance.

I'd like to see more numbers on this though, so I'm dismissing your argument.
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:49 PM   #42
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Hey guys, stop saying "taking A4s before AJo is laughable", it's kind of irritating when you donks have no idea of what you are talking about and still act like you do.

As for the people who really do discuss in here, I'm not big on explaining stuff anymore but I'll give you some food for thought: I'd take A4s before AJo UTG, but I'd take AJo ahead of A4s on the BTN.
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:58 PM   #43
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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I didn't realise your simulations were based on real player data
They aren't. I have 2 arguments. One is that I made simulations for some generic strategies.
Second is that I looked at some big db's of winning players.

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NL is a game where hands that can be played for stacks are the most valuable, and that is true even more so in a game with lots of bluffing and aggressive play
In such games tptk is huge money maker.

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I don't think that puts it way better than A4s
Hmm I don't think it's waay better. Just better. AJo is waaaay better than suited connectors though.
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They are fairly close now, whereas on party 2/4 3 years ago I'd take A4s by a long distance.
Probably. If you play vs guys who only put 20%+ of their stacks in with tptk+ then sure you need those flushes/straights/trips in big pots. Against such guys you make money with any two cards though as they just fold too much.

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I'd like to see more numbers on this though
I can't provide numbers from other ppl's dbs this is why I am inviting to post stats with AJ's vs A7s-A2s here.
I will publish some simulations soon. They are complicated stuf. Nothing like stoving or "well here we make straight sometimes or flush sometimes".
The problem is that even if I make very good simuls and test some reasonable strategies vs each other you are still going to say "there is something wrong with them", "real play is diffrent".
This is why I think argument with db's has better chances of convincing you.
Btw Can you say why you think small Axs are better hands ? If I hear your reasoning we can try to see where I disagree.
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:03 PM   #44
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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I'd take A4s before AJo UTG, but I'd take AJo ahead of A4s on the BTN.
This is valid in certain games. But if you are opening UTG wide range of hands , like standard these days : any axs, any sc's any pair any suited broadway, KQ,AJ and some 1gappers ppl would be morong not to call you with wider range too. As they know you have a lot of crap in your range they will make a lot of calls with stuff like KJs, QJs, JTs, KTs in position vs you. In such circumstances AJ can still be better.
In general I agree with your point though that A4s may be better than AJo UTG.
My opinion is that you can't expend your UTG range to contain all AJ/KQ, Axs and sc's. Maybe choosing Axs over AJ is better I dunno. It seems like complicated problem.

Quote:
Hey guys, stop saying "taking A4s before AJo is laughable", it's kind of irritating when you donks have no idea of what you are talking about and still act like you do.
The problem is it's not clear who is the donk anymore :-)
It's difficult to prove anything and access to practical evidence (results of good/great players) is very limited.
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:20 PM   #45
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
This is valid in certain games. But if you are opening UTG wide range of hands , like standard these days : any axs, any sc's any pair any suited broadway, KQ,AJ and some 1gappers ppl would be morong not to call you with wider range too.
Not necessarily arguing with your premise here, but is this really all that standard an UTG opening range? Genuine question, I play smaller stakes.

What sort of VPIP/PFR player raises so many hands UTG?
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:37 PM   #46
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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What sort of VPIP/PFR player raises so many hands UTG?
22-19 players usually open any sc, any pair, KQ,AJ, A7s+ and any suited broadways UTG from what I've seen many open more, some less. The range I gave is 15.2% of all hands. Most players of 22-19 types open 17-20% of hands UTG so they mix some more in.
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:38 PM   #47
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

punter,

I think mdma's point is almost universally true. With position it is 1) easier to get to showdown and thus realize our true equity 2) easier to control pot size 3) easier to correctly pick off bluffs 4) extract maximum value with marginal hands. All these points apply more often to top pair type hands like AJo/KTo than speculative hands.
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:42 PM   #48
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Easier?

I thought we talking about which one is more profitable. What I was saying is that if 6 bots were playing at a 6 max table with perfect strategies that AJo utg would show more of a profit than A4s.
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:47 PM   #49
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

mdma, for a guy who makes alot of money and his living from people in this forum you so your appreciation in your awe inspiring posts. Great posts from you in this thread
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:49 PM   #50
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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I think mdma's point is almost universally true. With position it is 1) easier to get to showdown and thus realize our true equity 2) easier to control pot size 3) easier to correctly pick off bluffs 4) extract maximum value with marginal hands. All these points apply more often to top pair type hands like AJo/KTo than speculative hands.
It sounds logical and convincing but...
1)practical results I saw doesn't support it; I haven't seen that much. Just a few msnl players. Back in the days I played trash UTG (like axs and sc's) I was losing money with that while making money with AJ/KQ (this is from 200k hand db from last year at 3/6 and 5/10); db's of some of my friends had same results
2) when I make simuls testing some commonly used lines it's always the same result AJ>A4 any day;

I understand the arguments about implied odds and stuff. It just doesn't seem to be that way in practice (and virtual practice of my generic players...)

Can someone please post some numbers from their db's ? I would love to see some numbers from other people.

Quote:
What I was saying is that if 6 bots were playing at a 6 max table with perfect strategies
Maybe I am nitpicking but there are no perfect/optimal strategy for poker played by more than 2 people. This is why practical evidence is very valueable. We need to know what works in actual games.

Last edited by punter11235; 07-27-2008 at 10:56 PM.
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