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Old 07-19-2008, 09:16 PM   #1
omaha
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THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

HI all, I play 100nl, but usually read msnl- I think ill prolly get better info from here, and there are also less threads to follow!

Assuming 100bb stacks, how do we feel about calling raises with Ace suited from say CO or button?

Obviously we will be calling/rr with say AT+, but what about A7s or A4s?

Reading bobbofitos book (which is kinda beyond my skill level, but a good read anyway), he likes calling raises with A2s-A5s and folding A6s-A9s. I suppose the theory is that we have no real kicker when we are below 10 anyway, and we also have a chance of getting a concealed wheel when playing A5-A2

At 50/100, nobody really squeezes anyway, so cold calling and fearing a squeeze doesnt really matter (infact, some ******os min raise so we can insta call!)

Would be very interested to hear what everybody else thinks about playing suited aces in this scenario.

Secondly, playing suited aces when all fold to us? I just assume, and always just make a standard raise (talking 6max here). Or, is opeing A2s from utg a bit too loose?
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:24 PM   #2
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Yeah, I've been opening up my game with the suited aces lately after never really playing them alot, thinking they weren't good hands because of the bad kickers and what not.
I think the most important thing is that when you flop a flushdraw, you have 12 outs a lot of the time against most made hands on the flop. That makes them pretty powerful and easy to play I find, even the middle suited aces.

Opening A2s from utg is a little loose yeah, you can start with A8s and opening any Axs from MP and adjust to the table, if you've got some lags/stations on the CO/BTN just move the UTG range to MP. And vice versa if you've got nits behind you and a fish in the BB.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:53 AM   #3
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

- Calling with ATo vs a tight and solid tag is pretty meh
- In my db, AXs are about breakeven. So the reason to play them is to get your sets etc paid off a bit more when you raise flop. I guess you can leave them out though if you want. I don't think it makes a lot of difference.
- you can open all AXs from UTG if you like. It does give your hand range good shania so that when you 3b flop you don't only do it with big hands and you are in a good spot to be aggressive when someone raises your UTG raise with A4s than with 67s. Quite a few solid players raise these UTG at some point in their career for that reason. Some drop it and some keep it later on when adjusting.
- Obv playing AXs when folded to us in LP
- T idea of calling low sc's is a good one. in case he didnt mention it, we have a much easier way to play it to further aggression with A-high, also it can hit more draws with gutshot+over+fd etc which are stronger than A7s.

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Reading bobbofitos book
wot? he wrote a book?
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Old 07-20-2008, 09:29 AM   #4
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

wat? i call with a6-a9 too.
edit: this is bobbo on my friend alex's computer
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Old 07-20-2008, 09:33 AM   #5
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
- Calling with ATo vs a tight and solid tag is pretty meh
for the record i don't advocate this at all.

Quote:
- In my db, AXs are about breakeven. So the reason to play them is to get your sets etc paid off a bit more when you raise flop. I guess you can leave them out though if you want. I don't think it makes a lot of difference.
or, you can play them well and profit from them, the reason to play them is not for balancing, it's to make money because they're good hands.

Quote:

- you can open all AXs from UTG if you like. It does give your hand range good shania so that when you 3b flop you don't only do it with big hands and you are in a good spot to be aggressive when someone raises your UTG raise with A4s than with 67s. Quite a few solid players raise these UTG at some point in their career for that reason. Some drop it and some keep it later on when adjusting.
A4s is better to open UTG then AJo, fwiw.

Quote:
- Obv playing AXs when folded to us in LP
naturally, anyone advocating folds here is on another planet altogether

Quote:
- T idea of calling low sc's is a good one. in case he didnt mention it, we have a much easier way to play it to further aggression with A-high, also it can hit more draws with gutshot+over+fd etc which are stronger than A7s.
actually, SCs flop slightly more draws then AXs, but AXs tends to have more made hand element which for my game is more important

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wot? he wrote a book?

yes, i did
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Old 07-20-2008, 09:52 AM   #6
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

A2-A5 are stronger hands then A6 and A7 afaik, i did some stoves one day when i was bored. the connectiveness gives the wheel hands some extra equity
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Old 07-20-2008, 09:53 AM   #7
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Quote:
Originally Posted by WOWMUSTBENICE View Post
or, you can play them well and profit from them, the reason to play them is not for balancing, it's to make money because they're good hands.
That was harsh but fair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WOWMUSTBENICE View Post
A4s is better to open UTG then AJo, fwiw.


actually, SCs flop slightly more draws then AXs, but AXs tends to have more made hand element which for my game is more important
I would definitely like to hear more about this.


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wot? he wrote a book?
yes, i did
When you get some time, can you answer your pm I sent you? Cheers.
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:47 AM   #8
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Quote:
Originally Posted by sh58 View Post
A2-A5 are stronger hands then A6 and A7 afaik, i did some stoves one day when i was bored. the connectiveness gives the wheel hands some extra equity
my gut reaction was that a2-a5 were stronger; i have since amended that; and currently i feel a2-a9 are essentially the same hand.
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:48 AM   #9
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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That was harsh but fair.

sorry

Quote:

I would definitely like to hear more about this.
i was reading various math sims about "hitting the flop," and basically SCs hit the flop a tiny bit more. PM matt flynn for details, im pretty sure he's the guy that was able to direct me to this. (*that said, it's not always about hitting the flop, AX has more showdown value)
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When you get some time, can you answer your pm I sent you? Cheers.
sure, i'll send one back
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:50 PM   #10
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Hey bobbo, is the book still on sale? If so, how much and where can I get it?
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:17 PM   #11
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Hey bobbo, is the book still on sale? If so, how much and where can I get it?
+100
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:47 PM   #12
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Yeah I'd be interested in that book as well
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:55 PM   #13
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

http://www.leggopoker.com/forums/gen...-book-149.html

Coldi come back to irc :P
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:16 PM   #14
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Originally Posted by WOWMUSTBENICE View Post
A4s is better to open UTG then AJo, fwiw.
i bought your book and love you and all, but if you sit at a table where this is true you should probably get up preflop imho
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Old 07-20-2008, 04:21 PM   #15
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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i bought your book and love you and all, but if you sit at a table where this is true you should probably get up preflop imho
fair enough and i don't disagree. for many reasons this is why AJo isn't a true tier 3 and A4s isn't a true tier 1; it should probably be seen they're v close in value. and id play both.

book is not for sale while i undergo changes, including security and editing.
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Old 07-20-2008, 05:50 PM   #16
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Do you know about how long until it becomes available?
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:38 AM   #17
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
sorry


i was reading various math sims about "hitting the flop," and basically SCs hit the flop a tiny bit more. PM matt flynn for details, im pretty sure he's the guy that was able to direct me to this. (*that said, it's not always about hitting the flop, AX has more showdown value)
Suited connectors >> suited aces below A9s-A8s. It's not remotely close.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:22 PM   #18
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

You are wrong Kaby, I'd take A4s before AJo UTG any day.

Last edited by MDMA; 07-21-2008 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 07-23-2008, 01:39 AM   #19
omaha
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

I would be interested to hear why matt thinks scs are way better than A rag suited.

I seem to get into trouble with SC easier, flush over flush, etc.

All thoughts much appreciated
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:29 AM   #20
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAll View Post
- Calling with ATo vs a tight and solid tag is pretty meh
- In my db, AXs are about breakeven. So the reason to play them is to get your sets etc paid off a bit more when you raise flop. I guess you can leave them out though if you want. I don't think it makes a lot of difference.
- you can open all AXs from UTG if you like. It does give your hand range good shania so that when you 3b flop you don't only do it with big hands and you are in a good spot to be aggressive when someone raises your UTG raise with A4s than with 67s. Quite a few solid players raise these UTG at some point in their career for that reason. Some drop it and some keep it later on when adjusting.
- Obv playing AXs when folded to us in LP
- T idea of calling low sc's is a good one. in case he didnt mention it, we have a much easier way to play it to further aggression with A-high, also it can hit more draws with gutshot+over+fd etc which are stronger than A7s.



wot? he wrote a book?
can u elaborate on why A4s can be played so much more aggressively than 67s when reraised pre? Are u saying that we can just shove over the 3 bet and have decent equity (as opposed to 4 bet/folding)? If so, what's a good frequency for such a play against an aggro 3 better? (curious, cuz i pretty much never do anything like this)

and how can we get bobbo's book?
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:40 AM   #21
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Man, saying A4s > AJo is so lol.
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:42 AM   #22
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihearthawrilenko View Post
can u elaborate on why A4s can be played so much more aggressively than 67s when reraised pre? Are u saying that we can just shove over the 3 bet and have decent equity (as opposed to 4 bet/folding)? If so, what's a good frequency for such a play against an aggro 3 better? (curious, cuz i pretty much never do anything like this)

and how can we get bobbo's book?
Oh, I was talking about raise, not 3b. And being raised on the flop, not pf. Sorry if that was unclear.
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:51 AM   #23
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Quote:
Suited connectors >> suited aces below A9s-A8s. It's not remotely close.

Quote:
Man, saying A4s > AJo is so lol.

I disagree, especially with the first quotation. The nut flush draw is a near nut hand and can be played effectively as the nuts. You are never gonna get it in as a dominating favorite when u flop a fd or oesd with T9s, quite the opposite actually.

I think comparing A4s to AJo is apples to oranges fwiw, and highly dependant on who's in the pot with you.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:11 AM   #24
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

Im having trouble coming up with how A4s utg can be > Ajo. AJo will make dominated pairs, a lot; while A4s will not, and considering when we have a good draw it will be hard to play oop. Bobbo,MDMA, id love to hear your thoughts.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:21 AM   #25
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Re: THEORY- Suited aces, the high, the mediim and the low-

the nfd is very easy to play oop no? you just bet/raise until there are no more chips
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