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Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA

04-24-2017 , 04:55 PM
Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 136.84 BB (VPIP: 26.99, PFR: 20.49, 3Bet Preflop: 7.94, Hands: 835)
SB: 99.4 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 38.78, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 49)
BB: 103.52 BB (VPIP: 17.32, PFR: 13.39, 3Bet Preflop: 3.13, Hands: 129)
UTG: 194.16 BB (VPIP: 21.95, PFR: 17.07, 3Bet Preflop: 4.08, Hands: 544)
Hero (MP): 117.2 BB
CO: 118.56 BB (VPIP: 20.45, PFR: 15.35, 3Bet Preflop: 6.19, Hands: 450)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A A

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (19.4 BB, 2 players) 5 Q 9
Hero checks, CO bets 9.2 BB, Hero calls 9.2 BB

Turn: (37.8 BB, 2 players) K
Hero checks, CO bets 20 BB, Hero calls 20 BB

River: (77.8 BB, 2 players) 7
Hero checks, CO bets 80.36 BB and is all-in, Hero ???

Another interesting hand I had last session; if y'all have been lazy on studying spots and studying ranges, help a brother out and use this to fulfill your quota of studying for the day lol.


Moving on, reason why I slowplayed is because I'm IP and I noticed his c-bet stats for c-betting flop in 3-bet pots were 100% (7/7) and c-betting turn, 75% (3/4). I thought the better way to get the money in the middle was to let him hang himself with TT JJ QQ, AK, AQ, etc. and under-rep my hand.

On the river, any runner runner flush he chose to bluff with is ahead of me now and him being a competent reg, realizes this and pots it on river. Additionally, how many runner runner flushes can he realistically have if we assume he's incredibly aggro in 3-bet pots?

Line check before the river?
Your thoughts and range analysis?

Thanks guys.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 05:22 PM
I think all his club draws are: some AQs/ATs he did not flat, some A5s/A4s, and some 98s. He's pretty polarized OTR and i would say it looks more like a bluff, specially if he's a reg. I could see him doing something like this with AJ or AT with Ac, hoping to make you struggle if you hit a lower flush.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magyc
I think all his club draws are: some AQs/ATs he did not flat, some A5s/A4s, and some 98s. He's pretty polarized OTR and i would say it looks more like a bluff, specially if he's a reg. I could see him doing something like this with AJ or AT with Ac, hoping to make you struggle if you hit a lower flush.
What do you think he'd be bluffing with?
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpDog
What do you think he'd be bluffing with?
Mainly any hand he has with the Ac
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magyc
Mainly any hand he has with the Ac
Now that you mention it, I've always had this question in the back of my head:
Does me not having the Ac, make him more bluff heavy? or more value heavy? Or does it just differ between situations and we should think of each scenario as unique?
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpDog
Now that you mention it, I've always had this question in the back of my head:
Does me not having the Ac, make him more bluff heavy? or more value heavy? Or does it just differ between situations and we should think of each scenario as unique?
It always depends, but in this case for example it goes both ways. You not having Ac gives him both more bluffs (Acx), and also adds the nuts to his range. In this case I am inclined to believe he has more bluffs than nuts because of the river shove, but if he is balanced V could be shoving with both, which makes the situation quite tricky against a reg.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpDog
Now that you mention it, I've always had this question in the back of my head:
Does me not having the Ac, make him more bluff heavy? or more value heavy? Or does it just differ between situations and we should think of each scenario as unique?
Should make him more value heavy as more of his value range contains Ax of clubs. Really depends on how much you think your opponent is capable of bluffing with the Ac. At lower stakes it's unlikely you are facing too many opponents capable of that type of play often enough to view it as anything other than value.

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Last edited by PTMHM; 04-24-2017 at 06:22 PM.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 08:20 PM
Youre not IP so the slowplay is bad IMO. Its hard to get value OOP so this is a must 4b. I also think you need to raise flop as played and lead out on other streets. AP OTR who knows, just dont get into this situation again.

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Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikk
Youre not IP so the slowplay is bad IMO. Its hard to get value OOP so this is a must 4b. I also think you need to raise flop as played and lead out on other streets. AP OTR who knows, just dont get into this situation again.

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THANKS MY DUDE, I WILLINGLY WON'T GET INTO THIS SITUATION.

On a more serious note, I just think you haven't read my full post so I'm gonna reiterate. He was cbetting on the flop in 3 bet pots 100% with a (7/7) sample size and cbetting turn 75% (3/4). Do you really think we're going to lack value OOP?

As played, I'm curious as to what you think a raise flop will do? I haven't thought of that line.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 08:46 PM
I read your post.

You have AA, you miss value when V checks. He cbet 100 in a sample of 7 hands. That's not that significant. You would still should prefer to be leading, which is why one might raise flop.

As you said yourself, youve turned your hand into a bluffcatcher OTR: why would you want that? Youve made it so much more complicated than it needed to be.

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Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 08:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikk
I read your post.

You have AA, you miss value when V checks. He cbet 100 in a sample of 7 hands. That's not that significant. You would still should prefer to be leading, which is why one might raise flop.

As you said yourself, youve turned your hand into a bluffcatcher OTR: why would you want that? Youve made it so much more complicated than it needed to be.

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How is that not significant? At the very least, I'd say it's indicative of a very aggressive opponent.

By your logic why do we squeeze or bluff or reraise and check raise and 4 bet OOP with A5s or anything? Why not just play QQ+, AK+? The game is so much more simpler than way.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 09:00 PM
It's not a significant sample, especially when cbet% is high anyway. Put it this way: you required him to out his own stack in WITH AIR on the river if you wanted it. Is he going to fold TT/JJ/AK/any of the hands you mention if you 4b pre???

V looks taggy so i would guess he is thinking about your range. Youve stationed 2 streets and everything completes by the river so I dont think he has many bluffs here unless hes turning hands with good SDV into bluffs.

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Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 09:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpDog
By your logic why do we squeeze or bluff or reraise and check raise and 4 bet OOP with A5s or anything? Why not just play QQ+, AK+? The game is so much more simpler than way.
This is a bit facetious. Why is this an argument to get tricky when there are more standard lines which are more +ev?



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Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 09:08 PM
Slightly exaggerated but my point still stands.
Anyways, would you ever slowplay anything then?
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 09:11 PM
Against this V on a board this dryish i think QQ/99/55 if you have it could take this line sometimes, but you'd still probably want to raise the turn with those. If V has any SDV up until now, he's probably checking back the river. You dont want him to be able to do that. Thats why we slowplaying is not optimal OOP. You want those final 80bbs and you want V to have to make a tough decision for them.

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Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-24-2017 , 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikk
Against this V on a board this dryish i think QQ/99/55 if you have it could take this line sometimes, but you'd still probably want to raise the turn with those. If V has any SDV up until now, he's probably checking back the river. You dont want him to be able to do that. Thats why we slowplaying is not optimal OOP. You want those final 80bbs and you want V to have to make a tough decision for them.

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In all seriousness, I do apologize for my childish behavior. I just wasn't sure if you were trolling me or not by saying "AP OTR who knows" in a hand review thread. I just saw it as going into a grocery store and asking if they have any eggs left and them responding with "Beats me."

I do agree I think, raising the turn would be good as I can rep a couple gut shots/flush draws as my bluffs. Also with the intention to barrel river against his SDV hands; I like this line better.

I do understand the concept of being OOP but I just thought if there ever was a time to be slowplaying a hand OOP, it'd be with the best starting hand and against a villain with said stats. Can you imagine a scenario where Villain bets 7 out of the 7 3 bet pots he's been in where he's only value betting? I think more often than not that stat is meaningful and indicative of him being an aggro villain.

Surely, you can't be suggesting hand samples of such a non-frequent stat of 100+.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-25-2017 , 02:21 AM
Ah sorry, i just meant that the decision otr wasnt that important because this isnt a situation you should find yourself in again imo.

Well his 3b stat is a little low anyway so he's probably got a tight range full of value. I think youre underestimating the importance of a lower SPR. Yes V might cbet with a high freq but he still has to bet 3 streets for stack to go in, and V looks reggish so I dont think hes always 3 street bluffing regardless. In a 4bp it could go in OTF before your hand's equity gets slashed.

I dont like raising turn because the Kc is great for V's range. Depending on how he constructs his 3b range he could have just made 2p, the straight, a set or a FD.

I think its a fold OTR but I'm guessing you called and V showed something ridic like TT?

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Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-25-2017 , 05:13 AM
4-bet pre.

Quote:
You want those final 80bbs and you want V to have to make a tough decision for them.
This is ******ed.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-25-2017 , 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJPW
4-bet pre.

This is ******ed.
lol you're right, that doesn't make much sense. I was tired.

What I meant was if V is there with AK/AQ we want to put him in a tough spot for the pot and not let him check and find out for free.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-25-2017 , 12:01 PM
In 450 hands and a 6% 3b seems weighted toward value and might be why his cbet flop and turn % is the 100 and 75 in 3bp. If he had a 12% 3b and those same post flop stats, I could see flatting pre with AA sometimes but I am more inclined to get as much in pre and otf as possible.

My guess is you get to the river this way with something like JJ,TT, AQos, AQs, KQs, maybe 2 combos of AKs and stronger hands, QQ,KK,99 and JTs. If V is not barreling less than 2 pair otr, call river with top 2, sets and straights and fold the rest, including AA; with or without the club, I don't know how much difference it makes.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-25-2017 , 12:06 PM
hahah see what you get for slowplaying

NEVER EVER slowplay at the micros
AP fold river

glgl
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-26-2017 , 04:17 PM
^ +1
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote
04-26-2017 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpDog
Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 136.84 BB (VPIP: 26.99, PFR: 20.49, 3Bet Preflop: 7.94, Hands: 835)
SB: 99.4 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 38.78, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 49)
BB: 103.52 BB (VPIP: 17.32, PFR: 13.39, 3Bet Preflop: 3.13, Hands: 129)
UTG: 194.16 BB (VPIP: 21.95, PFR: 17.07, 3Bet Preflop: 4.08, Hands: 544)
Hero (MP): 117.2 BB
CO: 118.56 BB (VPIP: 20.45, PFR: 15.35, 3Bet Preflop: 6.19, Hands: 450)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A A

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (19.4 BB, 2 players) 5 Q 9
Hero checks, CO bets 9.2 BB, Hero calls 9.2 BB

Turn: (37.8 BB, 2 players) K
Hero checks, CO bets 20 BB, Hero calls 20 BB

River: (77.8 BB, 2 players) 7
Hero checks, CO bets 80.36 BB and is all-in, Hero ???

Another interesting hand I had last session; if y'all have been lazy on studying spots and studying ranges, help a brother out and use this to fulfill your quota of studying for the day lol.


Moving on, reason why I slowplayed is because I'm IP and I noticed his c-bet stats for c-betting flop in 3-bet pots were 100% (7/7) and c-betting turn, 75% (3/4). I thought the better way to get the money in the middle was to let him hang himself with TT JJ QQ, AK, AQ, etc. and under-rep my hand.

On the river, any runner runner flush he chose to bluff with is ahead of me now and him being a competent reg, realizes this and pots it on river. Additionally, how many runner runner flushes can he realistically have if we assume he's incredibly aggro in 3-bet pots?

Line check before the river?
Your thoughts and range analysis?

Thanks guys.
Just 4bet pre and pile money in the pot.
Slowplay turns into bluff-catching on the river with AA Quote

      
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