Should I ever Flat this? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Should I ever Flat this?

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01-27-2010 , 07:20 PM

TheSeasoneer

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 57

I felt like I was gaining or saving value by flatting here against a pretty straight forward villain. I'd had a few tricky double barrels that, imo, pushed him off some hands that maybe shouldnt have and based on the flow, wasn't sure that I was good in this situation %100, but later wasn't sure on the value of not jamming pre.
Poker Stars $20.00+$1.00 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: t1310 M = 29.11
Hero (BTN/SB): t1690 M = 37.56

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is BTN/SB with Q

Hero raises to t90, BB raises to t300, Hero calls t210

Flop: (t600) 7

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t300, BB raises to t1010 all in, Hero calls t710

Turn: (t2620) 9

(2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t2620) 8

(2 players - 1 is all in)

Spoiler:

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01-27-2010 , 07:27 PM

ImmortalTechnique

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,362

If iv'e 4b shoved previously and he folded then im more inclined to flat and get business done on the flop whens hes gonna be oop.

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01-27-2010 , 07:57 PM

poloboy4

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,718

yea i'd probly just shove pre...

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01-27-2010 , 09:30 PM

TheSeasoneer

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 57

It just seems like the value in Q's vs a straight forward player comes from them over playing an under pair, draw or semi air. Anything else except an A or K on the flop and I'm going broke eitherway, but I save value by avoiding them pairing overs when I'm sure they'll shove pre

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01-27-2010 , 09:46 PM

kimdoocheol

adept

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 927

so are we c/f on a K/A high flop?

i just jam pre.. he might not fold lower pocket pairs and is def. not folding AK and maybe AQ. plus when we get OTF he could easily just c/f those hands if he misses.

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01-27-2010 , 10:27 PM

TheSeasoneer

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 57

edit: based on the seemingly no-bluff play he'd been going with, yes! C/f to any A K on flop. The 1/2 pot bet to induce a play to direct my action. I save %80 of my stack if that flop comes with overcards and get %75 equity if it doesnt at best. The read was AK +, with the post flop play, made the hand more transparent. Felt like I had to have that read commit against a player who seemingly never bluffed, nor reraise with AK-

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01-27-2010 , 10:29 PM

Boonce

adept

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,027

It's not a bad idea to just smooth call preflop. You're basically saying that you're going to commit to the hand 2/3 of the time (when no A or K comes out). I think given the nature of HU you can get your opponent to make mistakes with underpairs, AK and AQ. The risk of them flopping 2pair or better seems pretty negligable.

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01-27-2010 , 10:36 PM

Punch Dancer

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 4,694

Flatting is good if you think he's 3b bluffing a good %. Let him hit a pair and/or fire out a cbet and get alot more value. This is especially good vs ppl who like to 3b hands like 78s

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01-27-2010 , 10:36 PM

ImmortalTechnique

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,362

I think some of you arent including stabbing these A/K flops that you want to c/f so much when its only part of his range, there are hands used to justify shoving pre that will still fold A/K boards if we flat if of course villain is foldin to these shoves.

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01-28-2010 , 01:55 AM

#10

Hince

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 3,873

Once he makes it 300, I highly doubt he is ever folding to a shove. It's possible if his range includes a lot of bluffs, but a "pretty straight forward" villian doesn't.

That said, flatting isn't bad if you have a solid read post flop.

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01-28-2010 , 07:15 AM

#11

miniwiz

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,971

Having his %3bet stats would help,but as said once he 3bets to pot+1bb on 15/30 level i doubt he is ever folding to a shove.

Don't quite like smooth calling with QQ,if it was AA and he has been 3 betting some i would flat call because he has less good AX in his range combinatorics wise which he will stack off,but with QQ you lose a lot of value if he has AX and check folds or bets small folds on flops he misses because you would've stacked him PF.

If he is a total maniac that might fold to a shove but you know he'll follow up on flop always and bluff shove turns,by all means call.

Last edited by miniwiz; 01-28-2010 at 07:29 AM.

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01-28-2010 , 07:41 AM

#12

D*GMA

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 42

My 0.02 cents:

Mostly when I'm in a 3-bet pot with QQ I shove to avoid nasty Axx or Kxx flop decisions.

KK, and AA for sure, is a different situation since you're a head almost everytime postflop. In my experience (which is limited, since I just worked my way up through the $5's to the $10's on FTP) there's more value when you flat those preflop, since some of them tend to fold hands like fe. AJ to a shove. While if you flat, and flop comes Jxx, money def. goes in!

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01-28-2010 , 07:49 AM

#13

ShortSharpShock

u think u hu pro?

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,796

its fine, but i wouldnt expect him to 3b/fold to 300 very often at all and would normally shove.

there's certainly some merit to flatting kk or aa here, but in general i'd just shove those too for the same reason

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01-28-2010 , 10:22 AM

#14

JSpazz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 6,694

I think you can do anything but except folding, but I prefer shoving

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01-28-2010 , 10:29 AM

#15

DocDevil

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,739

I migh consider Flatting If I had AA or KK, and Villain was especially spewy, but wouldn't call a shove PF light, just consider but usually Im shoving.

with QQ I Just ship it.

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01-28-2010 , 12:34 PM

#16

TGSM89

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,491

ez ship of all premiums imo..

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