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Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove? Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove?

04-08-2018 , 11:16 PM
Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 189.5 BB (VPIP: 34.83, PFR: 22.11, 3Bet Preflop: 2.90, Hands: 206)
MP: 248.5 BB (VPIP: 16.00, PFR: 13.16, 3Bet Preflop: 4.51, Hands: 707)
MP+1: 116 BB (VPIP: 22.27, PFR: 14.98, 3Bet Preflop: 8.11, Hands: 253)
MP+2: 209.5 BB (VPIP: 18.03, PFR: 14.41, 3Bet Preflop: 12.24, Hands: 358)
CO: 37 BB (VPIP: 22.64, PFR: 3.77, 3Bet Preflop: 3.45, Hands: 54)
Hero (BTN): 109.5 BB
SB: 99 BB (VPIP: 23.29, PFR: 8.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 73)
BB: 63.5 BB (VPIP: 20.26, PFR: 15.42, 3Bet Preflop: 10.87, Hands: 228)
UTG: 106.5 BB (VPIP: 18.40, PFR: 12.77, 3Bet Preflop: 6.10, Hands: 475)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 2 2

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, MP calls 3 BB, MP+1 calls 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (13.5 BB, 4 players) 2 6 8
UTG checks, MP checks, MP+1 checks, Hero bets 9.5 BB, fold, MP calls 9.5 BB, MP+1 raises to 36 BB, Hero raises to 106.5 BB and is all-in, MP calls 97 BB, fold

Turn: (262.5 BB, 2 players) A

River: (262.5 BB, 2 players) K

MP shows 8 8 (Three of a Kind, Eights)
(Pre 82%, Flop 96%, Turn 98%)
Hero shows 2 2 (Three of a Kind, Twos)
(Pre 18%, Flop 4%, Turn 2%)
MP wins 249.5 BB

4 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.
Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove? Quote
04-09-2018 , 05:58 AM
Since he checked the flop on a semiwet flop in third position out of four, the checkraise seems much more likely a draw, some kind of FD with a gutshot. He really took risk by checking and leaving only you to decide if you want to open or close the betting round. Against 3 opponents there are many turn cards that may significantly improve random hands.
If I take the above reasoning, your shove is totally fine, because this is not how a top set should be played under these circumstances.
Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove? Quote
04-09-2018 , 07:05 AM
You can't just put him on 66 or 88, there are many combos you're ahead of. It's just a cooler.
Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove? Quote
04-09-2018 , 07:27 AM
6-max player here, so make of that what you will Might get better responses on the full-ring forum.

You'd expect MP to have a pretty tight range flatting an UTG open, so I don't think they're going to show up with many 2 pairs or combo draws on the flop. Still, they can definitely have hands like TT/99, broadway spades, and the occasional 88/66. Certainly can't give MP all of the set combos here – you'd expect a set to either lead out themeself or raise your flop bet a lot of the time.

When MP+1 check-raises flop with one caller already in the pot, I'm not sure they ever have worse hands than ours for value. Even 86s is pretty questionable, and that's only 2 combos anyway. When we get it in on the flop, we're usually looking a bigger set or a hand like T9/97/75/54 of spades which have a ton of equity against our hand. As for bluffs, I don't think they can get too out of line against three opponents and they certainly don't look like a maniac stats-wise.

All that said, flatting doesn't sound very attractive either. You give MP a good price to draw, you have to fold on spades (and it sucks because you let them get there), and even when the flush draw bricks you're often behind anyway if the rest of the money goes in. At least by shoving we prevent the flush draws from realizing their equity, and the hands that beat us would mostly have stacked us anyway.
Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove? Quote
04-09-2018 , 09:14 AM
Yeah I agree with you guys. I was shoving to protect my range against draws and it seemed unlikely that my set was a huge favorite in equity (but still likely ahead). I think maybe the most questionable thing could be my preflop call with two players left to act but I don’t think I like raising with 22 and I’m getting really good implied odds so calling I think is fine.
Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove? Quote
04-09-2018 , 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UTGSurgeon
Yeah I agree with you guys. I was shoving to protect my range against draws and it seemed unlikely that my set was a huge favorite in equity (but still likely ahead). I think maybe the most questionable thing could be my preflop call with two players left to act but I don’t think I like raising with 22 and I’m getting really good implied odds so calling I think is fine.
I think this board is exactly the reason you DO call pre. You have said it yourself, you are getting great IO and it makes sense to call here, you don't really want to get out of line with pocket 8s against more than one opponent. Don't beat yourself up, you're more likely to win this pot than lose it, and this just happens to be the time you lost it. Gg!
Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove? Quote
04-09-2018 , 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feldheimer1
You can't just put him on 66 or 88, there are many combos you're ahead of. It's just a cooler.
I agree it's definitely a cooler, I don't think you can get away from the hand because when villain shoves he either has a strong over pair or draw. You just ran into a nasty situation where it was set over set. Other than that the only other option is to fold 22 pre to the 3 bet. But, it's right to just call sometimes and fold sometimes the way you played it is perfectly fine.
Set Over Set Standard or a Bad Shove? Quote

      
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