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Old 11-04-2011, 07:49 AM   #176
gr8
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Re: Perky Debt

They came up with a plan togather so alec knew how to play perky wile perky was being watched by his back, a non pro poker player. Do you think perky being the scum that he is would go out of his way to pay this debt? Like he would say hey let me scam a guy that is backing me and just lose his money to pay alec? does this make sence? Alec and perky were friendly at the time..
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:50 AM   #177
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by ZeeJustin View Post
I think the issue is that Perky was playing on new accounts every time and he wasn't able to get them approved for high stakes transfers.

I'm not saying that's ok, but it backs up the possibility that Alec thought he had no other way to get paid.

Given that he was able to get 150k into the account, it seems like alarm bells should have gone off for Alec, but I'm saying this with all the information in hindsight, and I wouldn't be surprised if the possibility of Perky cheating his backer never occurred to Alec.

I'm not saying Alec is innocent here. All I'm saying is the people throwing down these giant accusations need to offer some evidence if they expect people to believe them.
How did perky get the money into the account then?
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:53 AM   #178
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Re: Perky Debt

Wow ZJ, what sort of ethical netherworld have you built around yourself?

"Chipdumping is against the rules because it goes hand in hand with... fraud."

"On it's own, there's nothing wrong with it."


Really, you can't even connect the dots here? It's wrong because it's against the rules, and it's against the rules because it goes hand in hand with fraud.

All you're arguing is that he shouldn't have to pay the price for breaking the rules. ZeeJustin gonna Zeejustin.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:58 AM   #179
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Re: Perky Debt

It should just be pointed out that if the only reason Alec shouldn't pay back the 150k is because he would have then somehow been 'freerolled' in some way, then that is just absurd.

It would have to be one of the most insanely elaborate schemes of all time at this point to think that Perky and this backer worked together in both the freezeouts and then this dumping situation in order to freeroll Alec and then, five years later, after the 85k debt goes public, coming out to recover the lost funds of that 150k. There is definitely a less than 1% chance this is what actually happened, so Alec simply was NOT freerolled. He can claim all day that the situation could lead to a freeroll (although it would be a ridiculous way to do it), , but what actually has since transpired basically makes it clear there was no freeroll and this backer had his money stolen by Perky and Alec working together.

I believe this money needs to be returned. Further, a website outing perky should be created and spammed.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:02 AM   #180
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by ebarnet View Post
Wow ZJ, what sort of ethical netherworld have you built around yourself?

"Chipdumping is against the rules because it goes hand in hand with... fraud."

"On it's own, there's nothing wrong with it."


Really, you can't even connect the dots here? It's wrong because it's against the rules, and it's against the rules because it goes hand in hand with fraud.

All you're arguing is that he shouldn't have to pay the price for breaking the rules. ZeeJustin gonna Zeejustin.
The price of chip dumping is not paying the 150k debt to the party that someone else screwed over.

If you want to say his account should be closed for two months or whatever, I won't argue. I'm not concerned with the misdemeanor here. I'm concerned with the felony.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:08 AM   #181
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Re: Perky Debt

That's not what I want to say.

What I'm saying is that if you are part of a fraud, you probably try to cover your tracks. When the fraud is uncovered, what happens next?

Let the cards fall where they may?

Throw due diligence out the window?

What I'm trying to say is, uncover as much as you can and return assets to their rightful owners.

AND since this court of public opinion will never uncover one **** worth of meaningful information, if traheho's got a problem he should take it to a legal court. Now, he's opened up a box of snakes to the point where he can get himself into trouble. Didn't see that one coming tho.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:10 AM   #182
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Re: Perky Debt

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Viffer, I'm not saying you're hunch is wrong, but if you're going to post something this damning to someone's reputation, you shouldn't act like you're 100% sure it happened when you can offer no real evidence.

You're accusing Alec of partnering up to outright steal 150k. That's not a minor accusation.
I was gonna post this before but held back. Viffer, basically it does no good claiming over and over that Alec did this and that if you can't provide any evidence or at least a few legitimate vouches to add credibility. It's the same thing with the onepac thread, maybe one pac is a scumbag, maybe he isn't but all that came out of your accusations was a trainwreck of a thread with a bunch of poo being flung from all sides.

Ebarnet, you need to chill out with your crusade. Two things being correlated (chipdumping and fraud) alone is not enough to conclude that Alec is guilty of STEALING $150,000. Not only does his name get unfairly tarnished but he could be expected to pay $150,000 simply because he unknowingly accepted stolen money by knowingly breaking the TOS.

Like ZJ said, if you want to campaign to get Alec's account banned for chip dumping thats fine. But to say 'well chip dumping is often because of fraud' and then say Alec is obviously guilty of fraud is quite frankly ****ing ******ed. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't but we have no evidence yet and stealing this much money is a huge accusation, your conclusions ITT are very illogical.

ZJ doesn't deserve the bashing you've given him ITT.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:14 AM   #183
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by ebarnet View Post
That's not what I want to say.

What I'm saying is that if you are part of a fraud, you probably try to cover your tracks. When the fraud is uncovered, what happens next?

Let the cards fall where they may?

Throw due diligence out the window?

What I'm trying to say is, uncover as much as you can and return assets to their rightful owners.

AND since this court of public opinion will never uncover one **** worth of meaningful information, if traheho's got a problem he should take it to a legal court. Now, he's opened up a box of snakes to the point where he can get himself into trouble. Didn't see that one coming tho.
Great, but this has nothing to do with what ZJ (or anyone is saying). Yes we should uncover as much as we can, and if we find out Alec is guilty then we should take as many steps as we can to ensure he is punished. The money should be returned.

At the moment there is no evidence, and there is no concensus that Alec owes the backer $ if he was unaware of what happened, so there should be no punishments handed out yet except for maybe chip-dumping punishments.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:23 AM   #184
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Re: Perky Debt

Here is what I said in post # 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebarnet View Post

Granted, saying YES does not automatically mean that traheho knew fraud was taking place. But to a reasonable person, suspicion of fraud is reason enough not to do business.
I never said or implied that traheho is guilty of stealing.

I implied that it's reasonable that traheho had accepted money foregoing due diligence. This doesn't take him off the hook for the 150k.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:25 AM   #185
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Re: Perky Debt

SoLost, there will never be definitive evidence here unless all parties involved simply offer it up and we can all believe them. So we are relegated to dealing with the facts at hand and coming to the most logical possible solution.

To me, there are only two logical solutions here.

1. Alec was conned into intentionally scamming the backer out of 150k because he believed it was owed to him by the backer either way from the freezeouts (which I don't think would have actually been the case seeing the way this played out).

2. Alec somehow accepted a really strange and fishy smelling deal to get paid by a chip dump in a very deliberate manner that is so much more fishy than just talking on the phone or something and knew nothing else at all. In this case, he very ignorantly accepted a deal that led to the theft of 150k from an innocent third party.

As I explained in my prior post, there is basically no way Alec was actually getting freerolled here. It would be near impossible that this was some insane scheme judging from how this situation has played out.

As a result, in both instances, Alec should be returning the 150k to the innocent third party who he either knowingly or unknowingly assisted in stealing from, and on the MarkLernerisascammer.com website, his personal claim from Perky should be 235k.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:26 AM   #186
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Re: Perky Debt

I'm getting on flight to Vegas, maybe by the time I land Alec will answer how much perky lost to him during chip dump and if he gave perky any money from it.

Also the people that needed to know got what they needed to know when I went after onepac. I'm sure I saved a few people money, at least the ones that made logical desisions not greedy ones.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:30 AM   #187
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Re: Perky Debt

I know that most of us never graduated college, but do we all understand what due diligence is? Do we know how that's going to apply to this situation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_diligence for reference, it's a pretty good explanation.
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:10 AM   #188
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Re: Perky Debt

Suprised at how many people think it's fine to keep money that is known to be stolen, so long as a sufficient (undefined) amount of time has passed between the transaction and the discovery that the money was stolen.
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:36 AM   #189
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Quote:
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Suprised at how many people think it's fine to keep money that is known to be stolen, so long as a sufficient (undefined) amount of time has passed between the transaction and the discovery that the money was stolen.
right!

Alec is the one that extended credit to Perky to play 50k freezeouts! If he happens to get freerolled then that's on him for extending credit to a shady customer. Nobody should be responsible for collecting that debt other than Alec and/or parties hired by Alec to collect the debt.

If the money that was used to pay Alec is now know to have 100% come from a backer and said backer did not authorize Perky to play freezeouts then Alec is pretty clearly imo passing this debt off on the backer to ensure he gets his.
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:52 AM   #190
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Re: Perky Debt

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I was gonna post this before but held back. Viffer, basically it does no good claiming over and over that Alec did this and that if you can't provide any evidence or at least a few legitimate vouches to add credibility. It's the same thing with the onepac thread, maybe one pac is a scumbag, maybe he isn't but all that came out of your accusations was a trainwreck of a thread with a bunch of poo being flung from all sides.

Ebarnet, you need to chill out with your crusade. Two things being correlated (chipdumping and fraud) alone is not enough to conclude that Alec is guilty of STEALING $150,000. Not only does his name get unfairly tarnished but he could be expected to pay $150,000 simply because he unknowingly accepted stolen money by knowingly breaking the TOS.

Like ZJ said, if you want to campaign to get Alec's account banned for chip dumping thats fine. But to say 'well chip dumping is often because of fraud' and then say Alec is obviously guilty of fraud is quite frankly ****ing ******ed. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't but we have no evidence yet and stealing this much money is a huge accusation, your conclusions ITT are very illogical.

ZJ doesn't deserve the bashing you've given him ITT.

jesus christ this. you're just like all the other nvgtards that breathlessly drool over the keyboard in great anticipation of all the nasty things they're going to cleverly spew out of their assmouth whenever they see zj post.

the ironic thing is he's way more knowledgeable and intelligent then you AND guess what, i bet a whole hell of a lot of people would trust justin with 10x the amount of $ they'd trust you with.
crazy isn't it since he's such a scumbag cheater?
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:57 AM   #191
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Re: Perky Debt

no its not ****ing ironic and your just a ridic troll.
clearly not all ToS ARE A BIG DEAL and i'm sure whenever you see someone jaywalking you rush right over to tell them how big of a criminal they are and to stop breaking the law.


edit: ahahahah ebernet sick ninja edit....i guess that was even too ridic for you huh?

hopefully that means you're crawling back under whatever bridge you live under.
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:09 AM   #192
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Re: Perky Debt

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jesus christ this. you're just like all the other nvgtards that breathlessly drool over the keyboard in great anticipation of all the nasty things they're going to cleverly spew out of their assmouth whenever they see zj post.

the ironic thing is he's way more knowledgeable and intelligent then you AND guess what, i bet a whole hell of a lot of people would trust justin with 10x the amount of $ they'd trust you with.
crazy isn't it since he's such a scumbag cheater?
It's ironic how you cleverly posted nasty things there...

Exactly how is ZJ knowledgeable and intelligent than myself. Is it that winning money playing cards makes you knowledgeable and intelligent? In all those hours of playing Magic and Texas Hold'em, ZeeJustin was reading case law, presumably.

edit: Between the time I typed a quick reply message and clicked Post, your flaming message went up. These two messages are essentially the same; only this one considers your post, as well.

Last edited by ebarnet; 11-04-2011 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:15 AM   #193
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Re: Perky Debt

The argument that "I negligently handle my business, therefore I am not responsible for anything" is not accepted anywhere... except itt by people who don't know how to handle business.
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:19 AM   #194
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Re: Perky Debt

Ebarnet, what the **** are you doing man. What are you even suggesting?

Your contributions to this thread have been to come in and say how sick Alec makes you and attack him for making this thread (warning people of someone who is scamming/stealing poker players is not a bad thing) then to attack ZJ for a variety of reasons as well as twisting his words. He at no point said that Alec should not be punished for breaking the rules.

ZJ is not just more intelligent than you because hes made money playing cards. He's more intelligent because he actually posts stuff that makes sense while you seem to lack basic logic skills.

If all you're gonna post is vile bs aimed at high stakes players then just stay out of the thread. The conversation is better without you in it.

edit: and now I see you're randomly quoting due dilligence, what does this have to do with anything you've posted? If anything THIS THREAD is due diligence because it's getting the word out that Perky cannot be trusted with money.
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:22 AM   #195
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by ebarnet View Post
It's ironic how you cleverly posted nasty things there...

Exactly how is ZJ knowledgeable and intelligent than myself. Is it that winning money playing cards makes you knowledgeable and intelligent? In all those hours of playing Magic and Texas Hold'em, ZeeJustin was reading case law, presumably.

edit: Between the time I typed a quick reply message and clicked Post, your flaming message went up. These two messages are essentially the same; only this one considers your post, as well.
ahahahahahha ESSENTIALLY THE SAME = NOT EVEN REMOTELY SIMILIAR???

wow dude not only are you trollish but your flat out delusional.

why don't you post what you did originally so everyone can appreciate your definition of "essentially the same" i think it would help put alot of your gibberish in perspective.

edit: i suck at google cache or w/e but can someone just post for hilarity's sake the post he snap deleted which he is now claiming is essentially the same?
he was yapping about how ironic it was that zj would think ToS wasn't a big deal.
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:23 AM   #196
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Re: Perky Debt

Wouldn't this whole thread be a lot better if Alec just came in and said what he did/didn't know and didn't leave this all to speculation and hypotheticals?

And yeah, the poo-flinging at ZJ about stuff that happened like 7 years ago? Really? Give me a break.
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:25 AM   #197
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Re: Perky Debt

IMO the most interesting part of this thread is whether Alec owes the backer the 150k, and it seems like the only thing people can really talk about until Viff comes in with evidence or Alec comes back from vacation.

I just assumed straight away that Alec was free of any debt to the backer, but I'd love to see more debate about it.
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:00 AM   #198
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by ZeeJustin View Post
Ya, what Kanu said.

Do you have any evidence of this Viffer?

Alec clearly isn't guilty if he had no idea Perky was stealing from his backer.

Anything else you can say is pretty irrelevant until you can offer any evidence of Alec being in the know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoLost View Post
Ebarnet, what the **** are you doing man. What are you even suggesting?

Your contributions to this thread have been to come in and say how sick Alec makes you and attack him for making this thread (warning people of someone who is scamming/stealing poker players is not a bad thing) then to attack ZJ for a variety of reasons as well as twisting his words. He at no point said that Alec should not be punished for breaking the rules.

ZJ is not just more intelligent than you because hes made money playing cards. He's more intelligent because he actually posts stuff that makes sense while you seem to lack basic logic skills.

If all you're gonna post is vile bs aimed at high stakes players then just stay out of the thread. The conversation is better without you in it.

edit: and now I see you're randomly quoting due dilligence, what does this have to do with anything you've posted? If anything THIS THREAD is due diligence because it's getting the word out that Perky cannot be trusted with money.
See Quote where ZJ, lemme paraphrase, says If traheho was negligent, then he's not guilty. I say negligent, instead of ignorant, because traheho did know that this method of transaction was unusual. He says he ignored the alarm because he wanted his money ASAP. That's willful negligence, IMO.

IDK what world you live in where the argument that swinging around hundreds of thousands of dollars and violating terms of a mutually agreed to contract is not negligent or downright criminal behavior. He's liable.. whether you agree, or not, doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverboatking View Post
ahahahahahha ESSENTIALLY THE SAME = NOT EVEN REMOTELY SIMILIAR???

wow dude not only are you trollish but your flat out delusional.

why don't you post what you did originally so everyone can appreciate your definition of "essentially the same" i think it would help put alot of your gibberish in perspective.

edit: i suck at google cache or w/e but can someone just post for hilarity's sake the post he snap deleted which he is now claiming is essentially the same?
he was yapping about how ironic it was that zj would think ToS wasn't a big deal.
I remember(almost exactly) what I said "I just love how ironic it is that ZJ showed up to post that violating ToS is not a big deal. The irony is ****ing golden."

I deleted it almost the instant it was posted. I assumed nobody had been able to read it and upon reading your post I decided I'd rather speak directly to what you said rather than singling out ZJ for no particular reason, and what you posted carried with it deep irony, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoLost View Post
IMO the most interesting part of this thread is whether Alec owes the backer the 150k, and it seems like the only thing people can really talk about until Viff comes in with evidence or Alec comes back from vacation.

I just assumed straight away that Alec was free of any debt to the backer, but I'd love to see more debate about it.
I don't agree this is the most compelling issue. The most compelling issue is whether threads like this should even exist- as this one was framed from the beginning.

Sure, we want people to beware of scammers. The best possible way to do that is for one to press charges, and post a link to a news article. Or to post a thread, "Hey, I have pressed criminal charges. Does anyone else have a story they'd like to tell in court?

The worst possible way is to make a pubic thread saying, "So and so owes me $XXXXX, does he owe anybody else? Does anybody have info on where I can find him or his family?" There is no potential for anything good to happen with this topic, unless you love gossip. The most likely situation to arise would be a bunch of baseless allegations[check].

In my estimation, the message that traheho intended to spread with regard to perky approaches criminal defamation. Criminal defamation is sick business, but it happens all the time on 2p2- there was once a girl who was trashed in a 2p2 thread that later committed suicide.
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:20 AM   #199
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Re: Perky Debt

Lol @ 'nothing good can come out of this thread'. How about people who read this never lend perky money again or let him play on credit? Or somebody who had given up on collecting their debt now has a higher chance to collect if they give the info to Alec and he takes the necessary measures? What if Alec can't take legal measures? The next best thing is getting the word out in public.

Your 'opinion' of why Alec started this thread is just that and spewing bs about his character based on him making this thread is ridiculous. What a crazy world you must live in where someone can steal $85k and the VICTIM of that loss is now a douche for making it public in a thread.
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:21 AM   #200
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by revlis87 View Post
Wouldn't this whole thread be a lot better if Alec just came in and said what he did/didn't know and didn't leave this all to speculation and hypotheticals?

And yeah, the poo-flinging at ZJ about stuff that happened like 7 years ago? Really? Give me a break.
This thread would be a lot better, but Alec immediately said he's going on vacation and will not respond for at least a week, and may consider not ever responding to this thread again.. That's a scumbag move and it reveals his intention when he made this thread was to sucker punch perky.

That's my take, I think it's clear that perky is an easy mark and that traheho is willing to do anything-besides damaging his own reputation- to further ruin perky's life or for financial gain.

Once it became apparent that this thread would lead to questions about how he handled himself and his business, Torelli jetted. if you agree
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