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Old 11-03-2011, 04:25 PM   #151
Kanu
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Re: Perky Debt

This thread is ridiculous. Not knowing any of the parties involved and just from reading the thread it appears that the most likely course of events was:

1) Some guy staked perky to play online cash.
2) Perky used that money to play $50k freezeouts.
3) Perky told traheho that he would rather his backer thought he lost the money playing cash.
4) Traheho reluctantly agreed to have Perky chipdump to him because he was worried he wouldn't get the money otherwise and decided that he'd rather have the money and leave Perky's deception between him and his backer.

Now, while in an ideal world point 4 wouldn't happen it's a decision that is really easy to take for traheho and is far from scamming or stealing from someone. It would be ridiculous to suggest that if traheho had played 50k HU sitngos vs perky and won and then he hears that the money perky used was intended to be used for HU cash that he should be in any way liable for paying the money back. Perky would clearly be responsible for paying the $150k to his backer. The fact that they played on credit then puts traheho in a tough spot if he finds out before he is paid. On the one hand traheho won the money the same as if it wasn't on credit (that should make no difference) and it's his so he should be given it, but on the other hand the backer will not want to give up the $150k when he didn't agree to stake Perky for $50k freezeouts so traheho will be worried he won't get the money if he tells the backer. It's clear at this point that Perky owes traheho $150k but he should be paying this himself, not from the backers money. The decision to take the money from Perky in the way he did without telling the backer was maybe not the best but Perky is the one doing the scamming, not traheho. There's a big difference between being the scammer and knowing but not telling the scammed (which is obv still not great behaviour).

I'm not saying that this is definitely how it went down of course, there's no way I could know. What I will say though is that it's ridiculous that someone can't post on here that someone is stealing $85k from them without getting flamed for 100 posts about something which people don't even know the details of and is not even clear how far in the wrong the OP was. This thread should have gone:

1) OP
2) sympathy/suggestions for resolution
3) viffers post
4) people asking viffer to post all evidence/proof of his allegations
5) either proof of the allegations being posted or the rest of the discussion being continued elsewhere
6) continued discussion on solving the OP's problem.

Being 2+2 though this is obviously far from what happens. This 2+2 witch hunt mentality that rears it's ugly head so often could do with being toned down a bit. Something to think about is what would happen if someone had come in here and posted this:

"Hey, I've just backed a known degen for high stakes cash, he played $50k freezeouts instead and then dumped the money to make it look like he lost it at cash. I think the guy he lost the money to should pay me back the $150k. The overwhelming response from the people criticising traheho would probably be "lol you've gotta be kidding, clearly the degen owes you the money, not the guy who won it but yr a moron for staking him anyway so you deserve to lose it"."

Some people just like to argue on the internet i guess.
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:37 PM   #152
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Re: Perky Debt

And btw, you should cancel your vacation. It's another example of acting, ohh let's call it "unethical," because anybody in this forum could find another name for your BS acting.

You knew the consequences of creating this thread. You're going on vacation now???...Your whole life is a vacation.

You have chosen to set off this little publicity stunt to satisfy some profound desire to hurt perky and to gather sympathy for you and your problems.
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:51 PM   #153
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Re: Perky Debt

I'm still mind boggled that anybody would be dumb enough to stake Perky. wtf.

And this thread is AIDS.
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:59 PM   #154
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Re: Perky Debt

The only way to settle this is thru the legal system.

Alec, you knew you were going to go way further than the public service announcement.

If you want to take action, file a class action suit and file a report with the FBI. Since you're not man enough to do that, and this thread is not about saying "perky is not credible, poker players be weary" you ought to run to vacationland and never come back.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:23 PM   #155
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Re: Perky Debt

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGRider View Post
What the hell is going on in this thread. Someone owes the poker community what is a seriously large amount of money that he STOLE from them. Why is there all of this irrelevant bickering of ethics? When people are scammers (That is what this is fwiw), then they deserved to be outed and feel ashamed of what they have done to the community that has embraced them. Stop attacking the victims and lets try and do something constructive for the greater good of the people owed.
What do you propose? Do you think that outing this guy is going to amount to anything, or does the so-called poker community need to do more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by traheho View Post
Most importantly, and my reasoning for this post: The poker community has no protection against theft. People like Perky are free to sweep through and take the community for millions and leave unscathed, returning to his luxurious New York lifestyle, while many are severely affected. Poker is hard enough to beat without the "rake" of theft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by traheho View Post
Whether Perky decided to freeroll, scam or steal someone else is not my concern nor problem. I do not intend to get into the personal affairs of others and feel very bad that it seems someone was falsely informed of the situation. However, the liability is not mine and Perky, should he adhere to this claim you're making, should consider working this out with his backer, provided that him playing me heads up was not allowed in the backing deal.
Your cognitive dissonance regarding the sanctity of the poker community is massive. First, you stand on a soapbox and tell us our community is in jeopardy because people like perky can steal and scam unabated. Then, you let us know that what he did to other people is "not your problem." Do you see the hypocrisy here? You don't mind winning money from a scammer that he stole off of someone else, but if your money gets stolen by the same guy, you want it back. You tell us that whatever happens to the rest of us is not your concern, but you want us to be interested in your side of the story here? If our problems are not your concern, why should your problem be our concern? It's nice of you to let us know that perky is a thief, but don't expect any solidarity from a community whose problems are "not your concern."

Anyway, perky is clearly a problem gambler. Problem gamblers are sick, and gambling leaves their lives and those around them in ruins. In this way they are like drug addicts or alcoholics. We see people like him as marks who are going to pay our bills, but in truth they are sick and we are taking advantage of them. If you want to play him or any of the countless other gambling addicts, you should know what to expect: lies, theft, nonpayment of debts, etc. It comes with the territory of trying to fleece a truly sick degenerate. And, given the way the "poker community" works, after he steals from you (which is inevitable), he will move on to someone else and they will give him action, because they view him the same way you did when you gave him action, even knowing how bad his reputation is. If you want to stop this cycle, you have to start caring about other people, and their problems have to start becoming your concern.
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:53 PM   #156
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Re: Perky Debt

viffer always makes threads worth reading
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:17 PM   #157
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Re: Perky Debt

Torelli makes me vomit... defaming people for his own glory.. I can't believe 2p2 still allows defamation.. Brandi Hawbacker nuff said
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:55 PM   #158
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Re: Perky Debt

Kanu...the problem with hypothetical #3 is that if perky told Alec that he'd rather his backer think he lost the money playing cash then either Alec would have known he was receiving stolen funds or he would have known that perky was backed for the freezeouts in which case there would be no issue at all. Alec is however claiming that he doesn't know why perky wanted to chipdump rather than xfer the money so people can only speculate at this point.
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Old 11-03-2011, 08:48 PM   #159
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Re: Perky Debt

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebarnet View Post
I like how Torelli claims to be one of the most upstanding and ethical actors in the poker community; failing to realize that loaning money to a pill addict and degenerate gambler, while fully intending to exploit that person by playing heads up poker with him while he's known to be at his worst- in terms of card-playing and living with severe addiction, has to be one of the most unethical schemes ever concocted.

Further, Torelli claims that the poker community is full of highly ethical people... What a sham. Was that statement seriously said in ignorance? If every single poker player is not in debt, then they are likely someone's creditor. Everyone I know has debts owed to them that they have come to accept will never be collected. And if there are a few subjects out there who are themselves neither a debtor or a creditor in this community, then they are not more than one person removed from a player that is.

Further, Torelli has the audacity to permanently display the indignation of Perky... it's not enough for Alec to simply live his life knowing that he's the benefactor of someone-else's ill fate, he feels proud to remind everybody in his circle of friends, every day and every where he goes, exactly who has taken advantage of. Nobody would buy this movie.

So, you even resort to pal around with your victim? You rejoice. Assured that he would forever know how you have lavished yourself at his expense. Even after biting the hand that fed you, you could never get enough. You would return day after to have a lick of blood.

If I were the director of this movie, I would have directed Perky to put a screwdriver in your throat the moment he set foot in your TYPERKY car. Alas, this is not a movie. In real life, PERKY has treated you better than anyone you have ever come across in your life - and now that you have ventured to post this information to a public forum, you have opened yourself up to a personal defamation lawsuit that perky would most definitely win.

Ask yourself, "is it worth it for you to lose everything over 85k?" Everything you have reaped from a person controlled by hormones that led them to the verge of ruin. Now you seek to ruin his reputation and/or his family's- isn't that the purpose of this this thread? You, yourself have inquired to perky as to his intention to pay you off 85k. So if the debt is legitimate, the respectable action is to file a lawsuit against him. What you have done here is intentional defamation, and I expect perky will recover a bit more than 85k if he or his family should find this thread defaming them.
awesome post, really enjoyed reading this and will read again and show my grandkids.



Quote:
Originally Posted by traheho View Post
Ebarnet,

I'm very impressed with your points. You're a very good writer, far better than I. Unfortunately for me, you don't seem to agree with anything I say The only thing you left out, was perhaps that he has stolen millions from the poker community and I'm not sure how crucified one should be for exposing that. Nobody seems to defend Chino...
oh really........? i guess u missed the thread where pros and casino floor men were coming in "defending" him


Quote:
Originally Posted by traheho View Post

For the rest of the forum and any other issues, I'm sorry that I stirred the pot. If there anymore urgent questions, I will not be checking this post again, as it is a waste of energy. For urgent concerns, send me an email at alectorelli@gmail.com or contact me on twitter/fb.

Thanks guys,

Alec
really? u sure about that?
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:14 PM   #160
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Re: Perky Debt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanu View Post
This thread is ridiculous. Not knowing any of the parties involved and just from reading the thread it appears that the most likely course of events was:

1) Some guy staked perky to play online cash.
2) Perky used that money to play $50k freezeouts.
3) Perky told traheho that he would rather his backer thought he lost the money playing cash.
4) Traheho reluctantly agreed to have Perky chipdump to him because he was worried he wouldn't get the money otherwise and decided that he'd rather have the money and leave Perky's deception between him and his backer.

Now, while in an ideal world point 4 wouldn't happen it's a decision that is really easy to take for traheho and is far from scamming or stealing from someone. It would be ridiculous to suggest that if traheho had played 50k HU sitngos vs perky and won and then he hears that the money perky used was intended to be used for HU cash that he should be in any way liable for paying the money back. Perky would clearly be responsible for paying the $150k to his backer. The fact that they played on credit then puts traheho in a tough spot if he finds out before he is paid. On the one hand traheho won the money the same as if it wasn't on credit (that should make no difference) and it's his so he should be given it, but on the other hand the backer will not want to give up the $150k when he didn't agree to stake Perky for $50k freezeouts so traheho will be worried he won't get the money if he tells the backer. It's clear at this point that Perky owes traheho $150k but he should be paying this himself, not from the backers money. The decision to take the money from Perky in the way he did without telling the backer was maybe not the best but Perky is the one doing the scamming, not traheho. There's a big difference between being the scammer and knowing but not telling the scammed (which is obv still not great behaviour).

I'm not saying that this is definitely how it went down of course, there's no way I could know. What I will say though is that it's ridiculous that someone can't post on here that someone is stealing $85k from them without getting flamed for 100 posts about something which people don't even know the details of and is not even clear how far in the wrong the OP was. This thread should have gone:

1) OP
2) sympathy/suggestions for resolution
3) viffers post
4) people asking viffer to post all evidence/proof of his allegations
5) either proof of the allegations being posted or the rest of the discussion being continued elsewhere
6) continued discussion on solving the OP's problem.

Being 2+2 though this is obviously far from what happens. This 2+2 witch hunt mentality that rears it's ugly head so often could do with being toned down a bit. Something to think about is what would happen if someone had come in here and posted this:

"Hey, I've just backed a known degen for high stakes cash, he played $50k freezeouts instead and then dumped the money to make it look like he lost it at cash. I think the guy he lost the money to should pay me back the $150k. The overwhelming response from the people criticising traheho would probably be "lol you've gotta be kidding, clearly the degen owes you the money, not the guy who won it but yr a moron for staking him anyway so you deserve to lose it"."

Some people just like to argue on the internet i guess.
This

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalexand42 View Post
I'm still mind boggled that anybody would be dumb enough to stake Perky. wtf.
+ this
= /thread
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:27 PM   #161
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by LucidDream View Post
Kanu...the problem with hypothetical #3 is that if perky told Alec that he'd rather his backer think he lost the money playing cash then either Alec would have known he was receiving stolen funds or he would have known that perky was backed for the freezeouts in which case there would be no issue at all. Alec is however claiming that he doesn't know why perky wanted to chipdump rather than xfer the money so people can only speculate at this point.
Yeah I'm assuming that traheho most likely found out after playing the freezeouts and before getting paid (speculation of course but makes the most sense) and decided to allow the chipdump rather than possibly not get his money. Thing is, he's receiving the money he's owed. As i said, if they played 50k freezeouts and perky paid straight away there'd be no chance of considering paying the money back when you find out he was staked but not for those games so I can see why it would be tempting to just accept the chipdump. This all changes if traheho played perky in the freezeouts knowing that perky was staked but not for these games and that they were going to make it look like he lost it playing cash afterwards. This is a huge stretch to accuse him of given the info in this thread though and my point is that unless the proof of that is aired, people shouldn't be derailing the original point of this thread with speculative accusations.
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:40 PM   #162
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Re: Perky Debt

fwiw i think if traheho accepted the chipdump and then told the backer what had happened so that the backer could try to get the money from perky then he'd have done nothing wrong whatsoever (assuming my guess at what happened is correct and that we're not gonna get too angry about chipdumping as a principle). Given that, all he's then done wrong would be not telling the backer afterwards, and given that he may not have known the backer and prob didn't want to alienate a huge fish, that doesn't seem too surprising at least, even if it isn't the most ethical option. He may also have genuinely not known why they had to chipdump so it's def unfair to have any sort of criticism levelled at him until something has been proven. If someone owed me money a few years ago and said tell you what i'll dump the money, we'll make it look realistic so that the site doesn't realise, if i bet this amount i'm bluffing, i'd prob have said can't you just do a transfer and if they said nah this is easier i'd prob say ok whatever. I was playing lower stakes back then so it's not quite the same but it's def not inconceivable that someone at that age would end up unknowingly participating in this without a ton of thought, especially if they're trying to keep a fish happy etc.
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:01 AM   #163
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Re: Perky Debt

Pweky wasnt always staked. Perky found a backer to to play alec after he lost the 150k. Perkys backer was a buisness man just looking to gamble.

Alec should of just recieved a transfer,

Alec how much money did perky chip dump to you?

did you give him any money after it was over, like in the next few days?


Do you think you deserve to judge other? If Vita owed you money would you of let him keep his seat and play in EPL?
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Old 11-04-2011, 03:54 AM   #164
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Re: Perky Debt

If someone owes you $50k and gives you a $50k car as payment and then you find out the car is stolen, what do y'all think happens to the car?
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Old 11-04-2011, 04:03 AM   #165
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Re: Perky Debt

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If someone owes you $50k and gives you a $50k car as payment and then you find out the car is stolen, what do y'all think happens to the car?
well in this case, you knowingly take a stolen care as the payment.....what do you think happens to the car now?.....ucwidt?
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Old 11-04-2011, 04:49 AM   #166
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by traheho View Post
Some other interesting things about this:

Had I the choice between being 150,000 poorer and having a perfect reputation or keeping the 150 and being convicted of this alleged theft, I would snap take the former. Then I thought about just paying the 150,000, to be done with it, but the action itself would be an admission of a crime which I am not guilty. I would gladly give it back, well not gladly, but I would if I thought I had stolen the money.

TwoPlusTwo is quite addicting. I never post on here, and now, like the family who tunes into a major criminal case on TV, I find myself clicking refresh on this page throughout the day. Personally, when it comes to 2p2, the lines seem to blur between finding information and addiction. That being said, I am leaving on vacation on Saturday for 5 days and won't be bringing a computer or cell phone. I won't be posting during that time and if this gets dragged out, I apologize for my absence. I will say, it would really suck to be a celebrity. No wonder they go crazy when they read the tabloids.
That is not true. If you unknowingly receive stolen money as payment it still doesn't belong to you. Giving the money back only admits that a crime was committed; not that you are guilty of anything. Making that strange logical is weird though
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Old 11-04-2011, 06:54 AM   #167
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Re: Perky Debt

Ya, what Kanu said.

Do you have any evidence of this Viffer?

Alec clearly isn't guilty if he had no idea Perky was stealing from his backer.

Anything else you can say is pretty irrelevant until you can offer any evidence of Alec being in the know.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:25 AM   #168
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Re: Perky Debt

LOL great... Zee Justin chimes in. His conclusion: violating ToS is no indication of dishonesty or worse. Good to see that your character hasn't changed at all.

This is the court of public opinion. How's he going to present evidence that's not based on circumstance or hearsay? Ob****usly, this is not the place for evidence, but the merits of his assertions are based on value his reputation. That reputation is better than yours, sir. So, automatically, anything you say is going to mean less here than what viffer has to say.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:28 AM   #169
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Re: Perky Debt

Alec sitting on a board of ethics also makes it an interesting topic since chipdumping according to some people isnt ethical?

I would argue that it is but not if its to disguise losses like Perky is said to have done.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:34 AM   #170
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by ZeeJustin View Post
Ya, what Kanu said.

Do you have any evidence of this Viffer?

Alec clearly isn't guilty if he had no idea Perky was stealing from his backer.

Anything else you can say is pretty irrelevant until you can offer any evidence of Alec being in the know.
What do you think justin?

Do i cry wolf a lot?

Isnt it funny how he makes up new excuses as i tell more and ore of the story?



I dont have any thing but a hunch but im willing to bet money on it. Im just waiting for alec to post, and promise to pay back if hes wrong since he has already considered it.

Isnt it weird that i just made this up out of no where and as i say more and more alec admits to more and more?

Last edited by gr8; 11-04-2011 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:34 AM   #171
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Re: Perky Debt

Ask yourself: "For two people who have a flawless transfer history, would it seem suspicious that one would need to chip-dump(violate ToS and put both accounts at risk of closure and funds seizure) AND to make the chip-dumping look like legitimate poker's being played? Would that be suspicious?

To say NO is clearly being unreasonable.

Granted, saying YES does not automatically mean that traheho knew fraud was taking place. But to a reasonable person, suspicion of fraud is reason enough not to do business.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:38 AM   #172
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Re: Perky Debt

Obviously if you chip dump you wanna make it look like you are playing real poker, that's the point of chosing chip-dumping over trasnfering money ...
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:40 AM   #173
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Re: Perky Debt

Chipdumping is against the rules because it goes hand in hand with many other forms of cheating, fraud, etc.

On it's own, there's nothing wrong with it (other than that it pisses off the sites). The problem is that it rarely happens on it's own. Personally, I never have chip dumped and never plan to, but if someone owed me a large sum of money and claimed this was the only possible way to pay me back, I might have to make an exception.

Perky was probably involved in a whole lot of shadiness which led to this payment dilemma, but if Alec claims he was clueless, and no one can offer any evidence that he was in the know, I'm not going to consider him guilty.

Did he break the TOS by accepting a chip dump? Sure. Does that compare to the other giant accusations in this thread? Not even close.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:43 AM   #174
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Re: Perky Debt

Viffer, I'm not saying you're hunch is wrong, but if you're going to post something this damning to someone's reputation, you shouldn't act like you're 100% sure it happened when you can offer no real evidence.

You're accusing Alec of partnering up to outright steal 150k. That's not a minor accusation.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:48 AM   #175
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Re: Perky Debt

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebarnet View Post
Ask yourself: "For two people who have a flawless transfer history, would it seem suspicious that one would need to chip-dump(violate ToS and put both accounts at risk of closure and funds seizure) AND to make the chip-dumping look like legitimate poker's being played? Would that be suspicious?
I think the issue is that Perky was playing on new accounts every time and he wasn't able to get them approved for high stakes transfers.

I'm not saying that's ok, but it backs up the possibility that Alec thought he had no other way to get paid.

Given that he was able to get 150k into the account, it seems like alarm bells should have gone off for Alec, but I'm saying this with all the information in hindsight, and I wouldn't be surprised if the possibility of Perky cheating his backer never occurred to Alec.

I'm not saying Alec is innocent here. All I'm saying is the people throwing down these giant accusations need to offer some evidence if they expect people to believe them.
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