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Old 11-05-2011, 01:07 PM   #326
BASaint
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by riverboatking View Post
are you really trying to argue that there is ANY difference whatsoever with the maguire et al case and this one?
There's a difference, see ebarnet's post for why money laundering occured in Alec's case but not Tobeys. If you dont like ebarnet, check out gr8's post. Also note that even if I accept that they are identical, Alec is still, in my estimation, liable to pay the stolen funds back to the rightful owner. Will be interesting to see the outcome of Tobey's case.

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sayonara.
Going on vacation eh, say hi to Alec for us.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:09 PM   #327
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Re: Perky Debt

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Not sure how you can draw that conclusion from Viffer's post, especially when the only thing that has been made clear in this thread is how Shady perky is. Alec clearly took a huge risk in this spot on multiple levels. There were quite a number of different ways he could have lost including having a losing poker session against the guy he thought was trying to lose.
Justin go reread this, alec admitted alot of things. you may be unclear of. They had a betting tell to fool perkys watchers.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:11 PM   #328
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Re: Perky Debt

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No one in this thread has even implied chip dumping is ok.

I'm friends with Alec. AFAIK, he's a great guy. If he helped organize a way to steal 150k from an innocent backer, I would certainly not be friends with him or ever trust him again.

If he allowed someone to chip dump him money to pay a debt, that certainly won't ruin my trust in him, especially given how long ago this was.

Do you understand how one issue is more important to me than the other?
1) Earlier, you said a 2month penalty is the appropriate penalty for chip-dumping. It can easily be used to embezzle money from people. DUCY chip-dumping is a serious problem? Or are you ignoring the problem, because your friend is a part of it?

2)What does great mean to you? Has Alec ever mentioned that he would never intentionally accept money that is not his? Alec's ethics are being questioned, not his ability to crack a joke or drink with you.

3)If it was your money, I bet you'd have an issue. That's why it's good to have uninterested parties handle the issues, not best buds.

4) Yes, it's cuz you are best buds and you wouldn't want your best bud doing something you wouldn't do yourself. We all understand that ToS agreements aren't something you believe in adhering to.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:13 PM   #329
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by BASaint View Post
There's a difference, see ebarnet's post for why money laundering occured in Alec's case but not Tobeys. If you dont like ebarnet, check out gr8's post. Also note that even if I accept that they are identical, Alec is still, in my estimation, liable to pay the stolen funds back to the rightful owner. Will be interesting to see the outcome of Tobey's case.



Going on vacation eh, say hi to Alec for us.
what you can't get thru your head is i'm not discussing the chip dump, and i never have. period.

and no i'm not going on vacation i am just going to (Hopefully) stop feeling compelled to respond to trolls and correct your stupidity as its totally pointless.

as for the chip dump and any possible money laundering....like i said before either alec was in on it or he wasn't and as FAR AS I'M CONCERNED if he wasn't aware of it I DONT THINK HE SHOULD BE LIABLE....and i don't really care to argue about it.

someone asked me for my opinion (insidemanpoker) and so i gave it, i'm not trying to try this case in a court of law.

all you wannabe ****** lawyers can yap to your hearts content.
carry on.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:14 PM   #330
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Re: Perky Debt

Justin, i would love to debate this voacally with you, but i cant fight with a pen as i dont type as well as you.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:15 PM   #331
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Re: Perky Debt

Do you now understand why the Alec & Tobey cases are different?
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:16 PM   #332
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by riverboatking View Post
are you really trying to argue that there is ANY difference whatsoever with the maguire et al case and this one?
The difference is this: the Maguire case was a legit poker game, and the case here is allegedly intentional money laundering.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:17 PM   #333
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Re: Perky Debt

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just keep changing what you think is relevant i'm done arguing with trolls.
forgot how awful all of these threads become because its just impossible to have any rational discussion.
everything just devolves into trolling and poo-flinging.
theres a saying that comes to mind

something about a racist pot?
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:18 PM   #334
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Re: Perky Debt

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what you can't get thru your head is i'm not discussing the chip dump, and i never have. period.

and no i'm not going on vacation i am just going to (Hopefully) stop feeling compelled to respond to trolls and correct your stupidity as its totally pointless.

as for the chip dump and any possible money laundering....like i said before either alec was in on it or he wasn't and as FAR AS I'M CONCERNED if he wasn't aware of it I DONT THINK HE SHOULD BE LIABLE....and i don't really care to argue about it.

someone asked me for my opinion (insidemanpoker) and so i gave it, i'm not trying to try this case in a court of law.

all you wannabe ****** lawyers can yap to your hearts content.
carry on.
Can we all agree if alec wasnt in on it he doesnt owe. i think most people would agree i do.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:19 PM   #335
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Re: Perky Debt

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Can we all agree if alec wasnt in on it he doesnt owe. i think most people would agree i do.
you would think but thats exactly what bsaint is arguing against.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:27 PM   #336
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Re: Perky Debt

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Can we all agree if alec wasnt in on it he doesnt owe. i think most people would agree i do.
No, disagree. Apart from being morally iffy, its incredibly exploitable if stolen money does not have to be returned if it has changed hands. Especially in the poker community. If you were the backer, would you be happy to say 'oh well, Alec has my money, all parties know it, but he didn't know it was mine at the time, so he can keep it. Even though he does know it now. Never mind that there's no chance I will ever get it back from Perky'.

I wouldn't.

It also incentivises people to ask as few questions as possible, as Alec did. If he had been a little more inquisitive it's less likely that Perky would have stolen $150k from his backer, but why would Alec bother when he stands to benefit from that theft?
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:28 PM   #337
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Re: Perky Debt

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No one in this thread has even implied chip dumping is ok.

I'm friends with Alec. AFAIK, he's a great guy. If he helped organize a way to steal 150k from an innocent backer, I would certainly not be friends with him or ever trust him again.

If he allowed someone to chip dump him money to pay a debt, that certainly won't ruin my trust in him, especially given how long ago this was.

Do you understand how one issue is more important to me than the other?
Sure, one makes him less trustworthy than the other.

That isn't my concern though. I want my account and other funds that belong to me protected.

If my account is emptied do you think I'm concerned with whether the person who received the funds knew the full extent of what was happening(assuming chip dumping occurred)?

The exposure is the same for the victim in both cases. Either way chip dumping was the cause.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:28 PM   #338
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by riverboatking View Post
what you can't get thru your head is i'm not discussing the chip dump, and i never have. period.

and no i'm not going on vacation i am just going to (Hopefully) stop feeling compelled to respond to trolls and correct your stupidity as its totally pointless.

as for the chip dump and any possible money laundering....like i said before either alec was in on it or he wasn't and as FAR AS I'M CONCERNED if he wasn't aware of it I DONT THINK HE SHOULD BE LIABLE....and i don't really care to argue about it.

someone asked me for my opinion (insidemanpoker) and so i gave it, i'm not trying to try this case in a court of law.

all you wannabe ****** lawyers can yap to your hearts content.
carry on.
Bolded- lol, way to stay consistent

Italic- You don't think he should be liable, and that's your personal opinion. That's not based on any precedent set in business law. What standards should people try to adhere to? It's my opinion that we should borrow standards from already well established institutions that have been more rigorously tested than your own personal ethical guidelines.

BTW you going to buy a drumset so you can give yourself a rimshot for everytime you post on 2p2? Just curious.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:29 PM   #339
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by BASaint View Post
No, disagree. Apart from being morally iffy, its incredibly exploitable if stolen money does not have to be returned if it has changed hands. Especially in the poker community. If you were the backer, would you be happy to say 'oh well, Alec has my money but he didn't know it was mine, so he can keep it. Never mind that there's no chance I will ever get it back from Perky'.

I wouldn't.

It also incentivises people to ask as few questions as possible, as Alec did.
you an idiot, this isnt a perfect world and how it got to argueing over this point is stupid.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:34 PM   #340
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Re: Perky Debt

BTW i'm not surprised that most of the high stakes regs (viff included) have no problem with receiving stolen money as debt payment. I suspect your business might be a lot more difficult if it wasn't commonplace & accepted.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:39 PM   #341
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Re: Perky Debt

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Justin i usually respect what you have to say and at least say hey he has a good arguement. If in fact you bet on a spots game and it is later found out that the out come was predetermined the people involved in fixing the game goto jail, look at the world series that was fixed.

you are just trying to fid points to argue and you lose this one.
I'm not trying to argue anything. I have no idea what the extent of Alec's involvement was in this. I'm not even saying you're wrong Viffer.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:44 PM   #342
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Re: Perky Debt

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Can we all agree if alec wasnt in on it he doesnt owe. i think most people would agree i do.
At best, I would say that Alec owes half.

Cutting these guys slack sets the standard that it's ok to extend credit to shady characters and not accept the risk of them welching on you. Alec didn't extend credit cuz he thought perky was good enough at hustling millionaires to pay him back. He extended credit cuz of the trust fund. If you extend people credit because you know they're a rich two bit hustler, then you're not better than they are.

The right principle is that when you loan a scummy schmuck money on credit, and he does something scummy, you don't pass the buck. He either legit pays you back or you get welched. Don't pass the buck because perky supposedly hustled some millionaire.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:47 PM   #343
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Re: Perky Debt

One thing I should point out: If I was in Alec's shoes and didn't know about the backer being ****ed, I wouldn't return it at this point. But then, i'm not on some sort of ethics committee and I dont make comments like

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Some other interesting things about this:

Had I the choice between being 150,000 poorer and having a perfect reputation or keeping the 150 and being convicted of this alleged theft, I would snap take the former.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:52 PM   #344
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Re: Perky Debt

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I'm not trying to argue anything. I have no idea what the extent of Alec's involvement was in this. I'm not even saying you're wrong Viffer.
Justin what do you think likely happened?
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:52 PM   #345
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Re: Perky Debt

the one thing that makes me feel like alec accepted the chip dump knowing it was a backers money is the fact they had bet size amounts to indicate the "dump". if it were a legit straight up chip dump for money owed they would simply interact on the phone or aim during the match, but the bet size indicator proves a backer was watching the match. why on earth would they mastermind a bet size amount prior to the heads up play when a simple phone coversation during the match would settle that? its pretty simpe.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:58 PM   #346
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Re: Perky Debt

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Justin what do you think likely happened?
If I was 90% sure he was guilty or innocent, I wouldn't say either publicly. I have very little outside information and my opinion on this is worthless.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:59 PM   #347
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Re: Perky Debt

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No, disagree.
BASaint is just being argue-boy-johnson - he can't be dumb enough to actually believe this
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:00 PM   #348
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by BASaint View Post
One thing I should point out: If I was in Alec's shoes and didn't know about the backer being ****ed, I wouldn't return it at this point. But then, i'm not on some sort of ethics committee and I dont make comments like
Whatever tenuous grasp you had to credibility is gone w this post....which is ironic since I agree for the most part with your position.
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:17 PM   #349
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Re: Perky Debt

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"This is not even remotely true. If someone embezzled money from their employer, deposited the money onto an online poker site and chip dumped it to me to pay a debt, and I had no knowledge of the situation/embezzlement and then 5 years later the company came and tried to collect the money from me; I wouldn't owe that money, the person who stole it would.

Obviously in this case Perky owes his former backer the money not Alec. Alec, would only be guilty in this situation and owe money if 2 things are true:

1. Perky Wasn't backed for the FREEZEOUT matches he played
2. Perky told him he was stealing from his backer."

Im pretty sure this is not true legally. Everyone that collected from Madoff was forced to pay back all profits and in the poker world the people that won money from the LA games where the money was stolen (remember the tobey/leo headlines). and number 2 is clearly the issue and it seems quite obvious that there were bad intentions betting certain numbers when bluffing clearly that is going beyond chip dumping and clearly trying to hide it from someone on perkys side. it is far more suspicious to the site that you catch every bluff rather than talking on the phone and waiting for a colddeck situation and put it all in. imo viffer is clearly correct and alec was well aware that he was stealing from someone even if he didnt know who the someone is.

makes no sense why you would start this thread when you had no shot of collecting a dollar
what would you do if you were broke? not do anything?
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:23 PM   #350
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Re: Perky Debt

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Ya, what Kanu said.

Do you have any evidence of this Viffer?

Alec clearly isn't guilty if he had no idea Perky was stealing from his backer.

Anything else you can say is pretty irrelevant until you can offer any evidence of Alec being in the know.
Can't you ever shut the **** up? No one likes you and no one wants to hear what you have to say.
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