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Old 11-05-2011, 08:43 AM   #276
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Re: Perky Debt

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Originally Posted by ZeeJustin View Post
Slight difference. The more information A has, the more guilty he his. I.e. the more sketchiness involved in being paid back = more reason to suspect something shady is going on = more responsibility on A's part.
The problem with this attitude is that it opens the door to wilful ignorance. The less you question, the less guilty you are.

That's no way to conduct business. Alec's attitude in this case of 'but I really wanted to get paid' is completely understandable, but has led to someone being ****ed out of $150k. Alec should take responsibility for that if he wants to maintain a whiter than white rep. Note that I am assuming that Perky was not backed for the freezeouts. If he was, this is a non issue.

RE the rest, it's obvious to all that Perky is the real scumbag. That's why there's no debate about him.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:48 AM   #277
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Re: Perky Debt

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Justin, every drive by shooting has a driver. What do you think the driver gets... speeding ticket?
If he had no idea and other guys in the car just started shooting, then probably nothing when he comes clean after that.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:53 AM   #278
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Re: Perky Debt

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If he had no idea and other guys in the car just started shooting, then probably nothing when he comes clean after that.
This is perfect.

When the police ask why they thought the passenger was holding a loaded gun throughout the journey, he can just say he didn't question it. When they ask why the passenger asked him to drive down the same street 6 times, he can just shrug. No chance the driver goes to prison because he didn't know what was going to happen.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:00 AM   #279
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Re: Perky Debt

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If he had no idea and other guys in the car just started shooting, then probably nothing when he comes clean after that.
lol, really?
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:01 AM   #280
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Re: Perky Debt

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Justin do you really believe Alec didn't know what was going on? Or are you just debating his side to debate it? Can people be so nieve to think Alec is an unfortunate victim here? With the stuff I know that I can't post here I'm convinced alec knew what was going on, that along with his responses and the circumstantial evidence it's a no brainier.
I'm certainly not vouching for his innocence here.

I've had enough interactions with Alec where he seems like a good intending, honest, very likable guy, that in my mind, he deserves the "innocent until proven guilty" treatment.

It's become clear that he was involved in at least some amount of shadiness. That doesn't mean I'm willing to assume he's capable of running such a huge con to assist in outright stealing 150k.

I'm not calling you a liar viffer, just a guy with no evidence.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:04 AM   #281
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Re: Perky Debt

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Justin, every drive by shooting has a driver. What do you think the driver gets... speeding ticket?

The question this boils down to is whether traheho is an accomplice or an accessory. By breaking ToS he is at least an accessory.

edit: heh, great timing, gr8
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An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed.
He could be an accessory to money laundering. It's unclear if he's an accessory to theft.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:19 AM   #282
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Re: Perky Debt

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I'm certainly not vouching for his innocence here.

I've had enough interactions with Alec where he seems like a good intending, honest, very likable guy, that in my mind, he deserves the "innocent until proven guilty" treatment.

It's become clear that he was involved in at least some amount of shadiness. That doesn't mean I'm willing to assume he's capable of running such a huge con to assist in outright stealing 150k.

I'm not calling you a liar viffer, just a guy with no evidence.
Completly UNderstandable, IM in vegas if aec would like to post money like he has said in the past, maybe we could have ashman arbitrate since dan blitz didnt want to get involved. I clearly dont think alec owes the money if he didnt have any part in what was going on by the way, thats my thought. Do you think he is smart enough to say hey if i dont do this im not getting paid? Do you think anyone owed 150k would turn down getting paid? In the heat of the moment i might of done the same thing as alec but if i did i wouldnt sit around and try to proclaim im as clean as jesus.

Justin would you tend to believe people know things that others dont? Have you asked your self how i know the things i know? Have you read alecs responces from the beginning, it was like he only made an excuse for what happened after it was brought up but he tried to hide it tell it was, then he never denied it he just tried to mke excuses for it. He never said he was inocent.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:40 AM   #283
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Re: Perky Debt

If everything gr8 has alleged is true, then imo the correct charge would be co-conspirator- money laundering and theft.

Obviously we can't prove anything. No more can we prove what alleged conspiracy took place than traheho can prove that perky owes him 85k.

Alec has everything to gain by persuading people that he has had a heart of gold from beginning to end. The circumstantial evidence suggests that scenario is unlikely. It's probably right to conclude that Alec is not guilty of being a co-conspirator with perky. The right thing for Alec to do, if Perky was backed by some rich gambler, then chip-dumped to Alec, is to return the 150 to the gambler.

Since the gambler was presumably taken as a quick fix to repay Alec, justice does not serve Alec the 150. The ethical thing for Alec to do now is to eat the 150 credit he extended perky. One cannot accept a chip-dump from a backed account and claim to be ethical. In case one had done so unwittingly, the ethical thing to do is return the money and pursue the original claim against perky thru conventional avenues.

****in slow fingers... gr8 jumped in there ahead of this response

Last edited by ebarnet; 11-05-2011 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:41 AM   #284
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Re: Perky Debt

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Completly UNderstandable, IM in vegas if aec would like to post money like he has said in the past, maybe we could have ashman arbitrate since dan blitz didnt want to get involved. I clearly dont think alec owes the money if he didnt have any part in what was going on by the way, thats my thought. Do you think he is smart enough to say hey if i dont do this im not getting paid? Do you think anyone owed 150k would turn down getting paid? In the heat of the moment i might of done the same thing as alec but if i did i wouldnt sit around and try to proclaim im as clean as jesus.

Justin would you tend to believe people know things that others dont? Have you asked your self how i know the things i know? Have you read alecs responces from the beginning, it was like he only made an excuse for what happened after it was brought up but he tried to hide it tell it was, then he never denied it he just tried to mke excuses for it. He never said he was inocent.
Not sure what you want me to say. There is reason to believe you might be right, but I'm giving Alec the benefit of the doubt until there's some real evidence.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:51 AM   #285
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Re: Perky Debt

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Completly UNderstandable, IM in vegas if aec would like to post money like he has said in the past, maybe we could have ashman arbitrate since dan blitz didnt want to get involved. I clearly dont think alec owes the money if he didnt have any part in what was going on by the way, thats my thought. Do you think he is smart enough to say hey if i dont do this im not getting paid? Do you think anyone owed 150k would turn down getting paid? In the heat of the moment i might of done the same thing as alec but if i did i wouldnt sit around and try to proclaim im as clean as jesus.

Justin would you tend to believe people know things that others dont? Have you asked your self how i know the things i know? Have you read alecs responces from the beginning, it was like he only made an excuse for what happened after it was brought up but he tried to hide it tell it was, then he never denied it he just tried to mke excuses for it. He never said he was inocent.

Knowing none of the parties involved personally, and not claiming anything is beyond a reasonable doubt, the most logical explanation for this whole mess seems to be to believe Viffer knows what he is talking about. He is also correct in that Alec's responses once the accusations came out were very suspect and his need to suddenly bounce from this thread is significant (he said he was leaving Sunday, so where has he been last two days?).

It makes a lot more sense that Alec, even if not a bad person, engaged in some seriously shady behavior that should result in the innocent being refunded. He probably did honestly do it as a desperation play to get his 150k that was rightfully owed to him, but that doesn't excuse it. It makes a lot less sense that Viffer would suddenly show up in this thread clearly knowing about a lot of stuff that Alec did not deny, but would somehow be lying about the final details that really put the nail in the coffin.

Now I don't know if enough hard evidence will surface to make it clear just how egregious Alec's actions were, but ZJ, you must admit, if you had to bet even money after reading this thread, there is no way in hell you'd bet that Alec was really clueless about what was going on judging from what we know. Not only did he take the funds via a chip dump rather than a transfer (a plausible explanation does exist for this) but he agreed to do it is a very secretive way that would be more akin to a strategy used to cheat at the same FR table than a method to dump HU. Why would you need such a clandestine tell when dumping heads up when you can just talk on the phone or something and just dump how any normal people would likely do it. It just seems so much less likely that Alec didn't know what was going on than that he knew but had somehow justified it to himself with the help of Perky.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:51 AM   #286
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Re: Perky Debt

breaking the ToS?! WTF are you talking about Ebarnet? Chip dumping is a crime? Let me guess, you think the rules made by super crooks should be followed? Keep worshiping Ivey and fam after they stole your $$$ and played craps with it....Keep thinking rules set by cheats and scammers (FTP Admin) should be law. I mean are you kidding me?

And wtf are you doing comparing chip dumping to being the driver in a drive-by shooting? You nerds have taken this way too far. Chip dumping can be just fine if nothing shady going on. If someone is aware that the person dumping chips is using money they scammed from someone else then that is awful yes....but don't be so gay as to compare chip dumping to being an accomplice to murder. also, JFC I hate people who cry after getting hustled. The hustler may in fact be filthy rotten scum, but you should have figured that out before you decided to gamble for lots of money with them.


and this "that along with his responses" - Viffer seems correct right here
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:58 AM   #287
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Re: Perky Debt

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OK OK u right not the perfect analogy....

You rob a bank, then you give the money to your best bud... So he gets to keep the dough right?

So Lost: yes, because I laundered it first

Me: smh just smh
Well the backer here has no legal recourse against Torelli so according to you that means he's out of luck and should just pay the 150k price tag of being an idiot. And if he makes a thread about it, then hes a scumbag for outting it in public. Problem solved!

ebarnet logic ftw
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:05 AM   #288
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Re: Perky Debt

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Well the backer here has no legal recourse against Torelli so according to you that means he's out of luck and should just pay the 150k price tag of being an idiot. And if he makes a thread about it, then hes a scumbag for outting it in public. Problem solved!

ebarnet logic ftw

IM pretty sure in a leagle civil suit the jusge would rule on the thought process of what was more likely to have happened, so the question would be is it more likely then not that alec knew what perky was doing or not and was he more likely then not involved.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:49 AM   #289
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Re: Perky Debt

I just went through this whole thread and Alec owned himself goot.

ZJ, RBK, it's understandable you guys would defend a friend--I hope I have friends that would do the same, but I don't think you guys are looking at this objectively.

If you go back through this thread (I suggest you do if you haven't in a few days) and read Alec's posts from the beginning it's textbook deflection, minimization, avoidance.

Alec comes across as a bit of a narcissist, and like most narcissists, they think they can talk themselves out of anything. However, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that Alec has admitted to that makes his case suspicious:

Why would Perky need to chip dump rather than transfer? If the account was able to deposit $150,000 and play nosebleeds, why couldn't the account transfer? There's never been a real answer to this.

What was the need for a betting tell if it wasn't to conceal the chip-dump to a third party? Alec mentioned he and Perky were friendly and talked on the phone a lot. It would be easier to conceal the dump from Full Tilt if you were sharing hand strength info rather than establishing betting patterns that a sophisticated eye might catch---but a businessman/part-time gambler wouldn't. And the red herring of " Betting patterns makes sense because what, do you expect us to bet 149,999 and fold to a raise of 150,000?!" would only distract a nitwit.

When things got sticky and gr8 came out as Viffer, Alec decides it's a good time for vacation after making one last post about how toxic and addictive (not addicting!!!! sry, pet peeve)2+2 is.

I think it's pretty obvious that Alec knowingly participated in defrauding Perky's backer. I don't think it was his idea, and I think he would have preferred to collect the debt legitimately, but I think he ultimately rationalized it in his own mind as a necessary evil to collect a debt. He's relying on the fact that hard evidence will likely never come out proving his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but the preponderance of evidence is staggering.
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:38 AM   #290
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Re: Perky Debt

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breaking the ToS?! WTF are you talking about Ebarnet? Chip dumping is a crime? Let me guess, you think the rules made by super crooks should be followed? Keep worshiping Ivey and fam after they stole your $$$ and played craps with it....Keep thinking rules set by cheats and scammers (FTP Admin) should be law. I mean are you kidding me?

...Chip dumping can be just fine if nothing shady going on.
This is the only reason I'm posting in this thread. Tons of people posting seem to think they can break the rules for a variety of reasons.

That rule is there to protect us and the all around integrity of all funds on the site.

If someone owes you money and you can't collect thats on you. I don't want my funds put at risk because you want to accept a chip dump.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:04 PM   #291
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Re: Perky Debt

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I just went through this whole thread and Alec owned himself goot.

ZJ, RBK, it's understandable you guys would defend a friend--I hope I have friends that would do the same, but I don't think you guys are looking at this objectively.

If you go back through this thread (I suggest you do if you haven't in a few days) and read Alec's posts from the beginning it's textbook deflection, minimization, avoidance.
1) the only person i defended in this thread was justin.

2) holy **** there are some TERRIBLE ****ING ANALOGIES ITT from people on both sides of the debate.

here is a tip guys: not every situation needs some wild analogy to help define/discuss it. this is one of those situations that DOESN'T NEED AN ANALOGY.

its really ****ing simple:

1) alec knew they were chip dumping because perky needed to scam his backer into believing he lost the money legitimately.

2) alec thought they were chip dumping because perky's account wasn't verified for large xfers (this is plausible and for those that say how did he get it, he could have got a lil and then won a bunch, he could have gotten the xfer and then his account lost its privilages etc i dunno but there are ways and if you were owed 150K and the person said hey i have the $$$ but my account can't xfer just sit and i'll dump to you i'm sure you wouldn't dig too deep)

those are the 2 scenarios and they don't need to be ****ing compared to any other crime, they are unique and stop trying to ****ing make stupid ****ing analogies to describe them.

and give me a break with all this sanctimonious oh even if he had no idea the money he was paid was gotten by scamming he should return it obv.

lets draw that out a bit, what if someone scams money from someone and then 5 years later pays you $ they owe and then 5 years after that you find out they had stolen that $$$ do you have to return it?

whats the deadline?

the really funny part is when the whole story broke about toby maguire and the other celebs getting sued by the people who that hedge fund guy used their money to pay his losses from the poker game everyone was like "lolz what an idiot you can't go after them for money they won in a poker game stupid lawyers always trying to sue everyone blah blah blah"

and that is EXACTLY the same situation.
someone scammed people, stole money, used it to pay debts, the people that got scammed found out and sued the people who got paid with the $$$ and the vast majority of people on 2p2 laughed at the absurdity of the law suit.

i'm sorry but if you got scammed that sucks, but i'm not paying you back for A) your stupidity B) gullibility.

if i had NOTHING to do with you getting scammed but happen to have been paid with money that was stolen from you i'm not going to be the one to reimburse you.

now if it was a situation where like scumbag steals from one of my good friends and then pays me back $ he owes me i would most likely give 1/2 of it back to my buddy so we split the loss but he's not getting 100% of it back.
the people that got scammed also have some liability, and some responsibility to protect themselves.

now ******s like ebernet who have no reading comprehension skills whatsover:

THAT IS NOT DEFENDING ALEC I HAVE NO IDEA IF ALEC IS GUILTY OF CONSPIRING TO STEAL.
NONE OF YOU (except maybe viffer, perky, and alec) HAVE ANY ****ING IDEA WHAT HAPPENED. YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ANYTHING HAPPENED UNTIL VIFFER ACCUSED HIM, SO STOP ****ING ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW **** YOU DON'T KNOW. YOU DONT KNOW WTF HAPPENED JESUS.

god its so tilting listening to everyone act like they know every ****ing detail of **** they have no idea about its unreal.

and i'm sure some ****ing pretentious blow-hard (cue nick rivers pls) who is the pillar of moral purity is going to come in and start yelling at me that no matter what you have to return every dollar you ever received if it was stolen, and to those people i simply say you can live in your own fantasy world (not that i ****ing believe any of you for one freaking minute, its super easy to talk about what you'd do with money you don't have) but i'm not going to argue about this.
you believe what you want, and if you try to say that not thinking like you do makes me immoral then i place you in about the same category as the people who tell me i'm immoral for having sex before i'm married and not hating gay people.

Last edited by riverboatking; 11-05-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:11 PM   #292
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Re: Perky Debt

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and give me a break with all this sanctimonious oh even if he had no idea the money he was paid was gotten by scamming he should return it obv.

lets draw that out a bit, what if someone scams money from someone and then 5 years later pays you $ they owe and then 5 years after that you find out they had stolen that $$$ do you have to return it?
Of course you ****ing do. See: any embezzlement case ever. The reason this does not happen is that the money is often unrecoverable. For example, it's been exchanged for a good or service, or lost in a game of poker. If the money is recoverable, as is the case here, it is recovered.

Quote:
whats the deadline?
You tell me, you're the one with the deadline.

Quote:
the really funny part is when the whole story broke about toby maguire and the other celebs getting sued by the people who that hedge fund guy used their money to pay his losses from the poker game everyone was like "lolz what an idiot you can't go after them for money they won in a poker game stupid lawyers always trying to sue everyone blah blah blah"

and that is EXACTLY the same situation.
someone scammed people, stole money, used it to pay debts, the people that got scammed found out and sued the people who got paid with the $$$ and the vast majority of people on 2p2 laughed at the absurdity of the law suit.
So... not even close to the same situation then. Your example is terrible. If Perky had lost the money in a poker game it would not be recoverable. He didn't.

Amazing that so many of you cannot understand that you cant keep stolen funds just because someone gave them to you.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:14 PM   #293
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Re: Perky Debt

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Of course you ****ing do. See: any embezzlement case ever. The reason this does not happen is that the money is often unrecoverable. For example, it's been exchanged for a good or service, or lost in a game of poker. If the money is recoverable, as is the case here, it is recovered.



You tell me, you're the one with the deadline.



So... not even close to the same situation then. Your example is terrible. If Perky had lost the money in a poker game it would not be recoverable. He didn't.

Amazing that so many of you cannot understand that you cant keep stolen funds just because someone gave them to you.
omg this is the most priceless thing i've ever read: ahahahhahaahh even if it was a fixed/rigged poker game it was still a poker game and your just assuming it was rigged in the first place, but even if it was how on earth is that TOTALLY DIFF wtf.

HE DID LOSE THE MONEY IN A POKER GAME.
A GAME OF HEADS UP POKER.
POKER. GAME.
POKER + GAME = GAME OF POKER = POKER GAME.

and wtf at the embezzlement case....if you steal money obv you have to pay it back, but you don't track down every person that the embezzler paid stolen money too.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:16 PM   #294
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Re: Perky Debt

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HE LOST THIS MONEY IN A POKER GAME TOO.
lol so naive
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:18 PM   #295
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Re: Perky Debt

actually to lose you have to have a chance to win, and in this case i dont think perky ever had a chance to win.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:19 PM   #296
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Re: Perky Debt

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lol so naive
man your location is so perfectly fitting for you.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:21 PM   #297
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Re: Perky Debt

This was a transfer of funds, not a game of poker. One of the participants has admitted as much. Funny that you think that since the transfer occured over poker software that you think the courts would consider it a poker game.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:23 PM   #298
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Re: Perky Debt

ebarnet,

STOP PM'ING ME. i have no interest in anything you have to say ever period.

your stupid. stop sending me private messages, anything you feel the need to say to me post in the thread, we're not friends, there is no need to send me personal and private messages.

let me reiterate my position on you: your stupid. you're a troll. you're stupider then i originally thought when i wrote "your stupid" the first time.

is that clear? you can stop sending me pm's.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:27 PM   #299
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Re: Perky Debt

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This was a transfer of funds, not a game of poker. One of the participants has admitted as much. Funny that you think that since the transfer occured over poker software that you think the courts would consider it a poker game.
Actually both parties have admitted it.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:27 PM   #300
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Re: Perky Debt

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This was a transfer of funds, not a game of poker. One of the participants has admitted as much. Funny that you think that since the transfer occured over poker software that you think the courts would consider it a poker game.
the money he won was from a game of poker.

in the lawsuit the guy didn't actually lose the physical money in the game, he played on credit just like in this case and then paid for his losses with the money he stole. just like in this case.

the 2 cases that you're saying are "so totally diff" are the exact same.
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