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Old 04-28-2006, 03:46 PM   #76
Ansky
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Good stuff AJ, very good stuff.

McShove, just stop.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:49 PM   #77
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Re: Adding to #2

Quote:
Good post. Something I just wanna add is if you've been at the table for a bit and people are noticing you often give up after cbetting and getting called, a good line to take it either 2 barrel bluff (which im not crazy about cause I often play for pot control when OOP and check the turn with many good hands) or go for the CR. The opponent jumps on your weakness, bets pot which should be 20bb and this point, and allows you to CR him allin. If you have an overpair on a 262 board or a good hand that your willing to go broke with (and often you should against someone whos calling to float), this play works amazing becuase it makes them afraid to float you if you not only fire second barrels, but have the balls to CR their asses allin. Do this play with the goods most often, and sometimes just whiffed AK hands, and thell lay off.
ahnuld this is good stuff!

AJ thanks for sharing-your strategy posts are always worthwile reading but you put alot of effort into this one-very helpful to see in print because I know my game suffers from many of the defiencies you refer to in your post.

You can make good money up to $200's and $400's without these adjustments but to go beyond that you need to open up-if you dont you are just too easy to read and you will be punished like a little *****.

I'm already forcing myself to open up..its very difficult because I've done well at every nlhe 6max level i've played. I'm raising hands in early position I formerly limped with,I'm re-raising more out of the blinds and floating more..its quite difficult because all of a sudden I'm in unfamiliar territory often out-of position which I'm not used to one bit. Playing in unfamiliar territory over and over forces you to think about the game(at least if you want to survive)and thus becoming a better hand reader and that's what this is all about-better post-flop play.

It seems to me that the better players may have adapted more easily to this natural necesary progression almost seamlessly but most of us will have to work at it..and even then many just will not get it to work. This is where the really excellent hand-readers are separated from just the very good hand-readers...if you cant make this leap ie the peter principal you may not be able to play much higher.

I think many players who only make money off fish are only endowed with average or slightly above average hand-reading skills vis-a-vis their opponents and they will fail miserably at attempting to open up all at once...it most be a gradual process except for the natural allstars.

In other words I think most players would do better if they slowly moved more towards this style ie maybe this progression 20/10,20/15,25/15,25/20,30/20 or some such and tweaking it to their own prefernces.

With great game selection maybe a 20/10 can work.. but all these games are getting tougher and in most of the games bigger than $3-6 I see that I datamine most of the biggest earners play with 30/20ish-type stats.
I'm referring to 6/5 max NLHE play.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:49 PM   #78
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Recently I was thinking about reraising preflop. While I've been very successful with my TAG style lately, I think I still am generally a tight reraiser, and soon enough my opponents will realize it (Especially as I move up to 3/6 tables where I run into more regulars and 2+2ers).

So, I figured I needed to expand my reraising range, and was considering posting to request ideas on the best way to go about it. Well, I think I just about have it figured out now thanks to this post/thread. Opening up your range isnt just about "ok, now i'll reraise with TT and AQ now too". Its about seeing profitable situations where your cards, your opponents, and the table situation as a whole are set up just right for a profitable reraise. And when that profitable reraise can get you more action later too... bonus!

Now, this is a concept that I essentially was aware of, but it hadn't sunk in quite as clearly until i read aj's post. Opening up a little more preflop is the next step in my game, and I'm glad to have had it so clearly expounded upon.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:57 PM   #79
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

For those that are playing 400NL+ (only because this stuff won't work if you get too low) and want to practice, move down a level to try it. The concepts should be the same but you can learn for half price. Then go back to your regular game and try it. You should immediately find your regular game a lot easier.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:58 PM   #80
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

standard
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:05 PM   #81
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Quote:
the whole catch behind all this is WHY OP is not as good a player as the people he talked to. I mean, think about: he now knows all of these ideas so why can't he use them as well as they can? the answer is HAND READING. and you can't really teach that just by making a 'deep' post on a message board. and that's why there is no harm is sharing strategic info on a forum. even if i talked strategy with one person all day and all night, when i played against them i would still feel that it is possible to have an advantage because of the way I mix up my play to be unreadable and the way i can read their play.
Yeah, I sort of skimmed through this thread, but I am surprised you were the first one to mention this.

The reason players like Samoleus and Building Sweaters are successful with their style is becuase they are also excellent hand readers.

From my personal experience, I have found the only way to improve on hand reading skills is repetition.

Not only playing many hands (as some of you know i probably play less than half the hands many of you do), but by playing close attention when you are not in the action, attempting to put those involved in the pot on a range of hands.



regards,

ness
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:16 PM   #82
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

There's a great concept in educational psychology/philosophy that is directly related to this issue. It is called the "zone of proximal development." Basically, the "zone" is the mental place that is outside of a person's expertise, but close enough that it's within his or her grasp. What's important to note here is that if a player isn't ready (or in this "zone"), then they won't be able to learn the skill. It's just too far beyond what they are already capable of. However, if a person is ready, they can obtain the new skills with good instruction and lots of practice.

In this case, what does it mean to be "ready"? Well, it means being able to read hands really well. It means having confidence in your game. It means understanding and being able to psychologically withstand higher varience. If you can't do these things and lots more, AJP's advice is nice to read, but not applicable to you right now (of course, once these prerequisites are met, it's a different story). In fact, I will go so far to say that if people want to learn to reraise more PF, as well as fire more 2nd barrels, it will be crucial that you learn the better post-flop play before you start firing away on the flop. The learning sequence here is really important. Making better bets PF is predicated on knowing how to handle yourself after the flop.

Paying attention to the order in which you address your leaks is just as important as determining what they are. Simply put, this will drastically shorten your learning curve (and be much easier on your BR).

Basically my point here is that people here will be able to assimilate these "high-limit" skills into their arsenal only if they are ready. Therefore this information will be useless for some, and a major "ah ha" for others. And the bottom line is that the individual has no control over their present state of readiness. This is simply a basic cognitive function that we all share.

Here's some more info if you're interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of...al_Development

Edit: Looks like Mason and others have basically identified these concepts as well. But it never hurts to have a formal theory there to guide and formalize your thinking and memory.
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:23 PM   #83
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

VN Marlow
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Old 04-28-2006, 05:13 PM   #84
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

Ugh...why post this? AJ if you have such a firm grasp on the game, as it seems you do from this post...why post it for free for anyone to read? I know i sound selfish, but really!
seems to be consistent with EVERY OTHER POST ON 2+2. i admit this was better than most, but this is a forum where everybody collaborates to become better. don't worry too much, the # of people that will read this post is almost certainly <1% of your opponents lifetime.
i disagree. less than 1 %? Nearly every 3/6 table i look at has 1 or 2 regulars, half of whom I KNOW read this forum. I love 2+2...but this specific advice...Kratzer, Fenix..this only hurts us.
Go away.



Great post, I will definitely be looking to use the second barrel more often, as it is a play I rarely use now.
In all fairness to the original post (which was very good), this advice doesn't "hurt us". He is basically saying: make sure you are very comfortably rolled, re-raise more pre-flop, and fire second barrels.

If you notice that your opponents suddenly start firing second barrels and re-raising more frequently pre-flop, well, there is a solution to that, just like there is to ANY style of play. Figure out what it is (and don't tell anybody).
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Old 04-28-2006, 05:42 PM   #85
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Oh cheers mason, telling a bunch of 400NL'ers to move into my game and start 3-betting and firing second barrels. Just what I need. Time to open up that 4-betting range...
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Old 04-28-2006, 05:51 PM   #86
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Gregg let me know that the VPIP numbers I got from him were only for 5 and 6 handed, not factoring in any HU/3/4handed that those players have played. The biggest winner in the 10/20 game on party is running at 25/21 over 200k+ hands. Either way, it isn't really important and is more of a small side note for the curious than a main point of this discussion, but I figured I should specify since I brought it up.
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Old 04-28-2006, 06:05 PM   #87
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Posts like this really underline why 2+2 is such a great forum. nh AJ.
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Old 04-28-2006, 06:21 PM   #88
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

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Wow.

You're acting like he released some huge poker secrets.

Though the concepts he talks about are solid, good advice, they're very basic advice.
i agree, this is basic information that every solid 5/10 regular and up knows and I used to see it a decent amount at 3/6 as well. that being said though, they are still crucial concepts that need to be grasped and UNDERSTOOD by lower and middle players.

I dont think people have to worry about advice like this "ruining" the games. Casino owners worried that card counting would ruin black jack games back in the day too. All the new information did though was psych people up to convince themselves that they knew how to play, causing them to play more and thus, lose more money.

In the end, the only players who will benefit are the ones who really take concepts like these to heart and actively try to properly incorporate them into their games. These players have the drive to get good anyway, regardless of whether they saw AJ's post.

well done sir
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Old 04-28-2006, 06:30 PM   #89
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Well said AJ
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:20 PM   #90
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

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Ugh...why post this? AJ if you have such a firm grasp on the game, as it seems you do from this post...why post it for free for anyone to read? I know i sound selfish, but really!
No offense to AJ who laid out some nice thoughts, but if my opponents are the kind of players who will get vast improvement from reading about re-raising light and firing 2 barrels, then those are the kind of opponents i want at my table.

the trick is not in knowing about it -- the trick is in implementing it.

-g
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:28 PM   #91
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

I like what you wrote, but I'd be careful about causality --
the winningest players have a loose style because they are very good poker players and make good decisions. Their ability lets them play loose.

Your post seems to imply that playing loose is what you need to do to be a top player.

The reality is that most people play the style that their skills let them play and when they go further they get into trouble.

-g
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:53 PM   #92
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Gergery,

Quote:

Also, I wanted to comment that "opening up" doesn't mean you have to drastically increase your VPIP and try to play maniac/LAG. Players that have "opened up" are willing to reraise more preflop, spot and make use of a larger amount of profitable situations (which ties into preflop), are capable of taking unconventional lines with hands that other players wouldn't consider, remain deceptive and creative, and do a better job of factoring in all the details when it comes into their decisions, among other things. Players that are going to start reraising light without taking into consideration the important factors, and/or making mistakes in the situations they get themselves into are going to be costing themselves a lot of money.
I imply that playing well is what you need to do to be a top player. That means many things, including being open to changing your game to maximize profitability, realizing + making use of more profitable situations, and doing a better job analyzing situations, interpreting all of the information present, and therefor reading hands better, etc. Yes, as it has been pointed out, many people play a static "style" that they are accustomed to and they aren't really willing to change certain things as this is what they are used to doing and what has been working for them. They get into trouble when they go further because they have no experience dealing with the situations "going further" brings, and this is obviously discouraging and part of the reason why they are "stuck".

People aren't willing to put themselves into uncomfortable situations by nature, and these situations are uncomfortable because they are new and the player doesn't have any experience in dealing with them.
In order to have experience with those situations, you have to be willing to put yourself into them, but I also don't mean jumping in blind as far as situations that you have no clue how to deal with and that will cost you money due to mistakes you will be setting yourself up for making. Prioritizing is key, and you have to know and understand how to deal with A and B before you can fully profit from C.
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:09 PM   #93
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Re: Adding to #2

Quote:
...

I'm raising hands in early position I formerly limped with,I'm re-raising more out of the blinds and floating more..its quite difficult because all of a sudden I'm in unfamiliar territory often out-of position which I'm not used to one bit. Playing in unfamiliar territory over and over forces you to think about the game(at least if you want to survive)and thus becoming a better hand reader and that's what this is all about-better post-flop play.

...

This is where the really excellent hand-readers are separated from just the very good hand-readers...if you cant make this leap ie the peter principal you may not be able to play much higher.

I think many players who only make money off fish are only endowed with average or slightly above average hand-reading skills vis-a-vis their opponents and they will fail miserably at attempting to open up all at once...it most be a gradual process except for the natural allstars.

...
I have to disagree a bit with what you are saying (it's not just you, but it's easiest just to focus on a single post). Loosening up will require better hand reading because you will flop more marginal hands, and you will end up in more spots where you can only win by bluffing. However, increasing your aggression level does not require better hand reading. In fact, it requires less. Successful passive play requires superior hand reading because you must interpret your opponents bets and then correctly compare your hand's strength to theirs. However, when playing aggressively, you don't have to worry too much about your opponent's hand -- you win if they fold.

If a TAG raises and you choose to call on the button, you are going to be on the defensive. You will frequently have one pair on the flop, which may or may not be the best hand. Now you need to have a good idea of your opponent's range, whether they will fold better hands to a raise, and what hands they will fire a second barrel with. On the other hand, if you reraise preflop and bet strong on the flop, the TAG is going to let you have the pot most of the time unless they have flopped better than one pair, or a very good draw. Since the hand that you will hold on the flop is usually much weaker than what you're representing (like, you have unimproved 77 while representing AA-QQ), you have a very easy decision if your opponent stays in the pot with you. The only hand reading that is required here is that you must know that your opponent is raising with a wide range preflop, most of which will not play a huge pot barring a great flop. When your opponent does choose to play a big pot, all you need to know is that your opponent has a very strong hand. This is sufficient for our purposes, but it is NOT hand reading.
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:18 PM   #94
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

Quote:
Awesome post. Thank you.

How successful do you think the 'open' game would be in the mid stakes Party games? Meaning, would it work as well versus more fishy players?
Does anybody think this post would apply to a game like NL200 6max on party??
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:40 PM   #95
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

it's strat posts like this by AJ that have helped me develop as a poker player, and he writes well on top of it. thanks, and well done man. i think the strategies outlined can be applied in pretty much any NL game, esp shorthanded. id say that most winning players employ a great deal of its aspects. vn post AJ, im glad you are a mod too.

and to mcshove, he was already man enough to apologize so no need to comment any more on him.
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:41 PM   #96
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:45 PM   #97
mason55
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

i think you hit a 2 outer
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:48 PM   #98
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

tl;dr
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:51 PM   #99
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:58 PM   #100
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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)

I think you need to work on your hand reading. =(
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