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Old 12-15-2009, 08:16 AM   #9401
nsoshnikov
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by pele02 View Post
Dealt to Hero A K
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $1, fold, Hero raises to $3, fold, CO calls $2

FLOP ($6.25) 8 J K
Hero bets $3.75, CO raises to $7.50, Hero raises to $22.27 (AI), CO calls $14.50 (AI)

Don't you guys think he raises good draws here? Are we folding b/c it's a minraise and we hold the A?


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Not a 12/9. He will raise here with Two pair+. A bit looser player would probably raise with draws.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:04 AM   #9402
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

After hearing all you guys talking about the painful ways of withdrawing in the US, I am very glad I am from Canada, and can withdraw straight to my VISA.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:18 PM   #9403
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by pele02 View Post
Dealt to Hero A K
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $1, fold, Hero raises to $3, fold, CO calls $2

FLOP ($6.25) 8 J K
Hero bets $3.75, CO raises to $7.50, Hero raises to $22.27 (AI), CO calls $14.50 (AI)

Don't you guys think he raises good draws here? Are we folding b/c it's a minraise and we hold the A?
[/COLOR][/B]
I think the most important part of this hand is preflop. Villan is a 12/9 and is flatting a 3b. The range of hands that he has when he flats a 3b is 88/JJ/AK/AQ/sometimes KK/AA. We can take away AK/AQ because we have A. So unless we want to get it in as a 95% dog then we should be folding.

The thing is your thoughts are right that a player like this will occasionally use his image in order to make us fold better hands. The problem is that he cant have hands like QT in his range because he most likely doesnt flat 3b's with that hand. In the off chance that he does and his range is 88/JJ/sometimes KK/QT were still crushed by that range.

FWIW, I still fold even if we dont have the A. Im then folding because I chop rarely, am crushed often, and when Im ahead its by no more than 5%. I know it all sounds very exploitable and truthfully it is, but without history were going to have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:26 PM   #9404
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

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Originally Posted by nsoshnikov View Post
My concern is starting out with everything "0". Meaning on any table that i will sit down, i will not have any info on my opponents and it sounds scary.
sack up. Feel free to play like a nit for your first 1000 hands.

I have never bought HHs because I like to adhere to the sites ToS. By nature I'm simply not a cheater.

I recently switched from PokerStars to FullTilt so my DB for FT players is starting from scratch when I had 100k+ hands on PS villains. It really is not a big deal -- play solid unexploitable poker against unknowns and outplay the spew monkeys.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:27 PM   #9405
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasons0147 View Post
I think the most important part of this hand is preflop. Villan is a 12/9 and is flatting a 3b. The range of hands that he has when he flats a 3b is 88/JJ/AK/AQ/sometimes KK/AA. We can take away AK/AQ because we have A. So unless we want to get it in as a 95% dog then we should be folding.

The thing is your thoughts are right that a player like this will occasionally use his image in order to make us fold better hands. The problem is that he cant have hands like QT in his range because he most likely doesnt flat 3b's with that hand. In the off chance that he does and his range is 88/JJ/sometimes KK/QT were still crushed by that range.

FWIW, I still fold even if we dont have the A. Im then folding because I chop rarely, am crushed often, and when Im ahead its by no more than 5%. I know it all sounds very exploitable and truthfully it is, but without history were going to have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
After I posted the hand and went back and reviewed it a number of times, stoving too, there is really no way I was ahead the way the action went down. Hands such as this at 50nl is why I dropped back for a bit. There are too many of these sprinkled in every once in awhile and when you drop 100BB's here and there, it kills a +BB/100. Which is why I'm just under b/e after 60k hands. Thanks for the confirmation Jason.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:27 PM   #9406
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Very well explained
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:29 PM   #9407
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by EN09 View Post
After I posted the hand and went back and reviewed it a number of times, stoving too, there is really no way I was ahead the way the action went down. Hands such as this at 50nl is why I dropped back for a bit. There are too many of these sprinkled in every once in awhile and when you drop 100BB's here and there, it kills a +BB/100. Which is why I'm just under b/e after 60k hands. Thanks for the confirmation Jason.
We might have the same disease
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:13 PM   #9408
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

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I think the most important part of this hand is preflop. Villan is a 12/9 and is flatting a 3b. The range of hands that he has when he flats a 3b is 88/JJ/AK/AQ/sometimes KK/AA. We can take away AK/AQ because we have A. So unless we want to get it in as a 95% dog then we should be folding.

The thing is your thoughts are right that a player like this will occasionally use his image in order to make us fold better hands. The problem is that he cant have hands like QT in his range because he most likely doesnt flat 3b's with that hand. In the off chance that he does and his range is 88/JJ/sometimes KK/QT were still crushed by that range.

If villain is flatting with 88/JJ then he is also flatting with 99/TT right? Does this villain flat QQ ever? Flatting KK+ is trappy. Is this villain trappy? Would villain raise the flop with 99/TT/QQ? Most wouldn't but some would.

Hero is OOP. What does betting accomplish here? To bet or not to bet TPTK is hugely villain and SPR dependent. What should hero's plan be when he 3bets PF?

If villain is not a drooler then clearly he thinks AK is in hero's range. If hero is the blind defending type then Ax and Kx are in your range too.

NINJA: SPR is ~4, not 7.

Last edited by funkyj; 12-15-2009 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:47 PM   #9409
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

FYI--apparently just looking at the withdrawal options activates the cashout doomswitch.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:49 PM   #9410
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkyj View Post
sack up. Feel free to play like a nit for your first 1000 hands.

I have never bought HHs because I like to adhere to the sites ToS. By nature I'm simply not a cheater.
I am not going to buy HH of course, as i don't want to get in trouble with the site, but would it hurt to get some from a friend?

Also, how is that cheating? Do you consider poker books cheating? For instance, in Chess players exchange their notations(like HH here) to have information on how their opponets play. The same goes here. If that's cheating then reading poker books is also cheating along with this forum.

Do people here who are friends with someone exchange their HH or something?
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:53 PM   #9411
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by nsoshnikov View Post
I am not going to buy HH of course, as i don't want to get in trouble with the site, but would it hurt to get some from a friend?

Also, how is that cheating? Do you consider poker books cheating? For instance, in Chess players exchange their notations(like HH here) to have information on how their opponets play. The same goes here. If that's cheating then reading poker books is also cheating along with this forum.

Do people here who are friends with someone exchange their HH or something?
Both stars and FT permit you to use only hands that you observed from your play at the table.

Don't get a friend's database.

Don't worry about whether it is cheating or not--reasonable people could differ on this. Just accept that the sites don't want you doing it, and don't do it.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:07 PM   #9412
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

FML Today!

KKvAA twice preflop and then this hand ensues. FTP has just taken back the 3BI's I gained in 5 hrs yesterday, in an hour today... Seriously, right now I don't give a crap about how I got it in good. SHIP ME MY FREAKING POT!!!! OKAY???

(garf is a mix of 25nl/50nl so I went with the bb option)



Spoiler:


Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($37.80)
BB ($25.85)
UTG ($25.13)
UTG+1 ($19.35)
UTG+2 ($25.68)
Hero ($26.88)
MP2 ($52.65)
CO ($12.50)
BTN ($25)

CO posted .25

Dealt to Hero A A
fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.25, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to $4, Hero calls $2.75

FLOP ($8.45) 9 7 2
BB checks, Hero bets $3.70, BB raises to $10, Hero raises to $22.88 (AI), BB calls $11.85 (AI)

TURN ($52.15) 9 7 2 6

RIVER ($52.15) 9 7 2 6 J

BB shows J J
(Pre 19%, Flop 14.3%, Turn 4.5%)

Hero shows A A
(Pre 81%, Flop 85.7%, Turn 95.5%)

BB wins $49.55
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:09 PM   #9413
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by nsoshnikov View Post
If that's cheating then reading poker books is also cheating along with this forum.


nsoshnikov, if you ever want to get even remotely decent at poker, you're going to have to learn how to get reads from your opponents at the table yourself, and not have everything spoon fed to you. If you honestly think that studying the game in a book is on the same level as using information about a specific player that you yourself didn't acquire, you're not going to get much help or sympathy around here.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:11 PM   #9414
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by nsoshnikov View Post

Also, how is that cheating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
Both stars and FT permit you to use only hands that you observed from your play at the table..
The only reason I consider it cheating is because it violates the ToS. I consider violating the sites ToS cheating.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of data mining or getting HHs any other way beside playing games yourself. That said, if the sites allowed it I would not consider it cheating.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:11 PM   #9415
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkyj View Post
sack up. Feel free to play like a nit for your first 1000 hands.

I have never bought HHs because I like to adhere to the sites ToS. By nature I'm simply not a cheater.

I recently switched from PokerStars to FullTilt so my DB for FT players is starting from scratch when I had 100k+ hands on PS villains. It really is not a big deal -- play solid unexploitable poker against unknowns and outplay the spew monkeys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
Both stars and FT permit you to use only hands that you observed from your play at the table.

Don't get a friend's database.

Don't worry about whether it is cheating or not--reasonable people could differ on this. Just accept that the sites don't want you doing it, and don't do it.

great advice itt.

as we move up levels, this is another good reason to drop # of tables, part of learning curve is finding out who the nits are, lags, etc... and what some of the major differences are for each level. learn to beat it then add more tables to increase hourly. put in the time & you will feel more accomplishment than shady. guess that depends on how you are wired.

gl all
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:15 PM   #9416
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by EN09 View Post
FML Today!

KKvAA twice preflop and then this hand ensues. FTP has just taken back the 3BI's I gained in 5 hrs yesterday, in an hour today... Seriously, right now I don't give a crap about how I got it in good. SHIP ME MY FREAKING POT!!!! OKAY???
I just started playing at FT recently. I don't really believe FTP or PS are rigged but damn, it is crazy the number of AA vs KK, quads and straight flushes I've seen in a small (e.g. 10k) sample of hands!

I can see how non-math people could declare that it is rigged!

EDIT: EV graph for this last weekend was -12 BI at one point. Of course EV is only one type of run good/bad. So far nobody has made a coolers graph or anything else that might indicate how you got lucky/unlucky WRT the strength of your opponents hands.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:18 PM   #9417
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

It's really not all that time consuming. I can start putting someone on a preflop range in about 30 hands. Of course this is prone to streakiness in a person's hole cards, but it's not the worst estimate either. At this point, you are more worried about people at the extremes anyways. Don't be lazy. Hell, be lazy. It's not like you're having to actually do the work. Just sit at a table and let the computer do the work for you.

(man, HEM is such a lifesaver. You can't imagine all the notes I took before I knew about the existence of the program. I've got like a whole 3" binder stuffed with notes)
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:24 PM   #9418
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Went and dropped of Christmas packages at a local satellite Post Office to avoid horrendous lines. I'm officially now on Life Tilt. There were at least 30 people ahead of me, some with shopping carts full of boxes to ship! Between a horrendous session today and the lines I waded through, I'm going to watch some poker vids... maybe JH1's 'Crushing the Quarter' series.

Maybe I'll have a session late tonight... maybe fiddy.
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:31 PM   #9419
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by pele02 View Post
We might have the same disease
+1
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:40 PM   #9420
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

going through one of those stretches where Everytime I get AA/KK or flop the nuts/2nuts I think "Well, lets see how I am going to lose my stack now".

Is 18BI below expectations (all in EV) in 10K hands enough to legitamely ***** about?
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:43 PM   #9421
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyG-SD View Post
going through one of those stretches where Everytime I get AA/KK or flop the nuts/2nuts I think "Well, lets see how I am going to lose my stack now".

Is 18BI below expectations (all in EV) in 10K hands enough to legitamely ***** about?
For some reason, I have the dread with AA, but not with KK. In fact, when I get it in with KK vs AA, I consider it a bad beat when I DON'T suck out. I don't know why Ks are better to me than rockets.
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:45 PM   #9422
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

I've been losing KK <KQ and AA <AT...If I win 2 out of 4 AA vs KK I consider that running normal.
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:51 PM   #9423
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Also, my biggest win in online poker was a ~600BB pot at 10NL where we both got it all in PF with AA vs KK. I sucked out, of course.

It's funny, I still have yet to match that win at 25NL. I think my top three wins are still 10NL.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:09 PM   #9424
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDAWD View Post
Also, my biggest win in online poker was a ~600BB pot at 10NL where we both got it all in PF with AA vs KK. I sucked out, of course.

It's funny, I still have yet to match that win at 25NL. I think my top three wins are still 10NL.
ha, my favorite online hand (for comedy value) was one I played back in March, iirc. 4 players AIPF holding AA, AA, KK and QQ. I had KK and hit a set, as did the guy with QQ. Those guys with AA must have been ready to murder someone.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:11 PM   #9425
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Re: ***Official 2009 Micro Stakes FR Full Tilt Regulars Thread***

New FTP Answer thread--- shorty solution
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