How come Doug didn't address the SS issue in his list of 30 replies?

you're obviously ignorant to the issue and math surrounding this. i'm sure someone else says this further on in the thread, but i couldn't help but insta-respond to this BS...

honestly? i imagine they're waiting for the bean counters to wait to figure out how much they stand to lose by people moving to Stars, versus how much the loss in bottom line would be if an adjustment decreases the amount of rake inflation cause by shortstack play.

not well articulated, but i imagine my thoughts came through...

You can play poker with 2. When the number gets to three, play much tighter, but steal more blinds (if positioned). At 4, just sit out. Don't leave, just sit. The "better" short will realize the table dynamic change and will leave..... leaving behing the "bad" shorties and the full fish you were after to start with.....

This mostly ignores your seat assignment relative to fish and shorts alike...but you get my drift.

He did.

I understand the math issue but you are still missing the point.

Sometimes you have to break from the norm to deal with an issue. The book may say one thing but you do another.

Smart people are successful because they do things other people will not do. They do things others say will not work. I refuse to let players make me run to unprofitable situations. I can adjust or goto a site more favorable to me.

Sometimes you have to give a little to make alot.

ugh. it's got nothing to do with my inability to adjust or being to stubborn to do so. i can go back and check my stats against the shorts and i'm likely making money off them, but that's not the issue.

answer this question, rather than continue on this futile discussion about winrate and whether it's possible to adjust to them (which, you seem to continually avoid the mathematical point that it's impossible to truly exploit these players if they play properly. we are all in thie thread probably winners against them because they do not, but that's not the issue...):

why should i stand for being forced to play a one street game in which there are no skill advantages? if i have no way to, in reverse, force the shorts to play a multi-street game? THIS is why it bothers me as i do not have any true recourse. the pleas to FTP to address this are my only recourse as the mechanics currently do not allow me to address the issue via my skill level.

what this is, is turning the game of online poker into less and less of a "skill" game and reducing it to pure random luck. if we all played the shortstacker strategy we would all make money, for now. as the % of shortstackers increases, the game becomes less about skill and gravitates towards random chance of whoever's running card-hot at any given moment.

this is bad for online poker, especially with the current political views on it in the US. the major poker rooms taking a stand on this is a small show of good faith to the notion that poker is indeed a skill game, and there's a recognition and desire to keep that aspect of it a priority. without this, we in the US can kiss our rights to play online goodbye.

so, keep pretending it's possible to truly adjust to their play style, but please stop coming off as ignorant to the truth of why this is more of a legitimate issue than you seem to let on...

is it a tired issue? HELL YES. i'm sick of it already and i've only been re-active as a player within the last month and change. but it doesn't mean it's not affecting me, and until i either have a real option of recourse or a real option to play back at it via my skills, i will keep harping on it (but probably will just have to move to Stars where it's less of an issue).

dwalker012, your location says "SS whiners sucK!".

Yet you respond/whine with the same message over and over to these posts.

Do you see the irony in this?

Where? I just read his post again and I find nothing about this topic.

And SSer sucks. Period. Even most of them are plain bad it is way more better to play vs. a fish 100-200bb then vs a SS scum for his freaking 20bb.

uhhh,,, I quoted it in my first reply in that the new Answers thread. It wasn't much other than to acknowledge Doug's reading of the 9/22 thread and continued discussions at FTP.

And I have stated in the past, it does no good to diss shortstacking. FTP makes $$$$ off these guys. If the full's only response is "they suck and should all *****", then rational discussion cannot produce an equitable outcome.

Try to see the full picture and assess how FTP views the issue. Then we can talk about leveling the playing field by offering the full what he wants (50-100BB tables) while also giving the short (and presumably a healthy cash cow for FTP) what he wants....access to full tables with the S20-100.

I really not see that FTP views about this topic as an issue. I really like to play there but there but sometimes their costumer service is just horrible. Why do they always so long to give their costumer what they want...

But you ar absolute right about the discussion should be rational and more as just "I want all SSer would die".

I think the idea w/ a third category (i.e. 50-100) together with "normal tables" (which would just a SSer party then) and deep tables is pretty good.

But I have really doubts FTP will realize this in the near future (or at all).

Trying to defuse the arguments a little the best way i know how .......

Hey King,

I was splashing around on the tables last night...hope you got some of my give back.

So are there any females who post here? I have yet to see a post littered with hard bods.

Shortstackers destroy table dynamics. It's simple. Like taking seacreatures and putting them into a pond which is not their natural habitat, they ruin things for all the others. Although I'd rather liken them more to the spread of rats. Because that's what they are, little ratholers. We all know how they start sweating profusely once they have a 40bb stack, their whole little world implodes.

The most annoying thing is when a shortstacker doubles up off a fish, then instantly leaves.. and is immediately replaced by another shortie that I have labelled

brilliant statement - however, most of us don't want to play for 20bb in half the pots. it's not an issue of beating the shorties, it's the fact that we would like to play "real" poker in the time we have to spare for the game. 1-2 shorties is fine then, but if most tables have 4-5+ of them, it gets annoying and at least for me, takes the fun out of poker.

Are there any really good SS'ers? Is there an effective way to exploit the bad ones?

There are a few who know what they are doing.

Try this one:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...-stacks-17011/


tables are meh ATM.

Well, the worst SSers are the ones who try and play regular poker with short stacks. They play with SPP and suited connectors and stuff without the implied odds. Best way to deal with them is to get a hand that beats them and then suck their money out within the first two streets. One of my favorite hands, I got someone to put half his stack in with QT sooted against my aces. I managed to get the rest of the money in the pot the next street. (well, villian actually flopped a flush and I lost, but you get the idea)

Just look for the players that call big raises and then fold to c-bets on benign looking boards.

there are a few SS who are decent at the micros, but the good ones move up to NL200/NL400 fairly quickly. The other ones are just bad, and about 1 hour a month looking at there play with pokerstove will give you the edge needed to exploit them.

What I hate about SSer is when I don't account for one at the table and then they enter the pot..

your hud will pretty much tell you whether theyre standard ss or just a fish about to go busto... but a good (i dont want to use this word, id rather say.. a bot) shortstacker will never limp or flat c. they will shove a raise.. they will shove if theres enough limps.. otherwise they will pretty much bet half their stack to commit themselves and shove on flop. there are occassions when they have AA that they will flat IN pos and then overshove cbets on flop.
Generally the bot ones will be <7-8% vpip and your hud will be quick to show em.

here's a russian shortstacker I frequently see at my nl100 tables now.. he used to be nl50/nl25.. he plays 8/7 and will sometimes pick spots with weaker hands that he over shoves.

http://www.pokertableratings.com/ful...-search/flaism

disagree with this...good SSers will limp at aggressive tables from EP with the thought of limp/raising over the top or an iso raise. They also resteal wide from the BBs.

My rule of thumb for playing SSers, is that if I know I am entering a pot with one, I am never folding the flop. I take lines to either maximize my FE (if needed) or keep his range widest as possible.

I never understood how these SS shovers were that successful. Back in my 2NL days, there would be a guy named yanrong who would buy in for 21BB and would shove or fold. When he shoved, he made the minimum or got stacked by a better hand. He was always covered, so even if he had a good run, he would lose it all with one hand where he was the dog.

http://www.pokertableratings.com/ful...search/yanrong

He hasn't played for a few months now.

sure.. it happens, the more dynamic ones will have more advanced plays.

bad bot ss imo.


that's why he was at NL2.... he probably got banned with that botscore. when I say probably, I mean definitely.
with rb hes +. some chinese person running bots.

How much RB could you possibly generate with this method? Your rake revenue is primarily from the big pots you win. He was almost always at the bad end of big pots.

But I liked sitting to his right. It was like having the button twice.