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NL50, QQ against unknown NL50, QQ against unknown

04-20-2008 , 03:54 PM
This is villains first orbit at the table so no reads.

Villains big turn bet makes me think he is drawing/doesn`t have a ace.
What do you think?

Is it better to just call and let him bluff a blank river or raise now if I`m gonna follow my "read"?

UTG: $53.67
MP: $53.18
CO: $146.61
Hero (BTN): $48.50
SB: $29.47
BB: $24.41

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with Q Q
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.50, 1 fold, BB calls $2.00, CO folds

Flop: ($5.75) A T 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($5.75) 2 (2 players)
BB bets $5.75 (Villain has $16.66 left), Hero?
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 03:58 PM
with no read, this is kind of tough. I say call turn and re-evaluate river
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 04:37 PM
bet the flop!! i think you have to bet there 100% of the time.

as played call and try to go for a cheap showdown.
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 06:31 PM
yeah, i would deff bet the flop, to see where you are in the hand

if he raises, then thats a tough spot with no reads etc.. if he just calls, and the turns a blank, he prob checks, which means you can check, and call the bet on the river, to keep pot small
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 06:51 PM
Quote:
yeah, i would deff bet the flop, to see where you are in the hand
If you cbet the flop, it is NOT supposed to be for this reason, because it lets your opponent play closer to optimally. You should rarely be betting purely for information. In this case, you cbet in order to make the FD pay and to possibly win the pot right here.
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:11 PM
There is nothing wrong with checking behind the flop here, even with the draws. The pot is small, we only have 5bb's invested, there is no need to "protect" and charge draws. If villian has a weak A he is check calling, if he has a flush draw he is check calling. When he calls we can't narrow his hand down any and merely bloat the pot.

The reason I like checking behind here is because we are only going to get one street of value out of any hands we beat. If villian has a worse pair and calls, we can't bet again on the turn. If villian has a flush draw and calls, again, we can't bet the turn. With that in mind, I like putting a bet in on the turn more so than on the flop. When we bet the turn, assuming villian doesn't lead into us, we keep the lead going into the river. This allows us to merely check it down and show our hand. If we bet the flop then check behind the turn villian will bet betting any hands we are beat by as well as the occasional bluff. Our hand has show down value, but we aren't going to get there near as often betting the flop and checking behind the turn.
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 75s00ted
yeah, i would deff bet the flop, to see where you are in the hand

if he raises, then thats a tough spot with no reads etc.. if he just calls, and the turns a blank, he prob checks, which means you can check, and call the bet on the river, to keep pot small
Unless villian bluffs alot or makes thin value bets, calling a river bet is going to be -EV. Also, if you are check raised on this flop after cbetting, it should not be the slightest bit of tough spot; super standard and easy fold
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saldirgan
There is nothing wrong with checking behind the flop here, even with the draws. The pot is small, we only have 5bb's invested, there is no need to "protect" and charge draws. If villian has a weak A he is check calling, if he has a flush draw he is check calling. When he calls we can't narrow his hand down any and merely bloat the pot.

The reason I like checking behind here is because we are only going to get one street of value out of any hands we beat. If villian has a worse pair and calls, we can't bet again on the turn. If villian has a flush draw and calls, again, we can't bet the turn. With that in mind, I like putting a bet in on the turn more so than on the flop. When we bet the turn, assuming villian doesn't lead into us, we keep the lead going into the river. This allows us to merely check it down and show our hand. If we bet the flop then check behind the turn villian will bet betting any hands we are beat by as well as the occasional bluff. Our hand has show down value, but we aren't going to get there near as often betting the flop and checking behind the turn.
+1
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:18 PM
cbet the flop and the hand plays out much easier imo
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikemang
cbet the flop and the hand plays out much easier imo
Sure does. We get better hands to call, worse hands to fold, so if we get a call, we can fold on the turn!

Seriously though, I don't like a c-bet here with a hand that has some showdown value. C-betting basically turns your hand into a bluff, which depending on the villain MAY be okay. Against an unknown though, it wouldn't be the line I'd take.
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitzu
Villains big turn bet makes me think he is drawing/doesn`t have a ace.
How confident can we really be about this? The flop check-through, in addition to probably increasing Villain's confidence in his Ax if that's what he has, did also cut into the available time for Villain to get his stack in. He's not going to get it in without overbetting (or without facing an aggressive response) unless he pots it now.
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:41 PM
I don't have a big preference on the flop. The board is drawy enough that we might get called by worse (and we might even get called by, like, second pair by our half-stacked Villain despite the ace on the board). That said, we can't like our hand a whole lot if we're called, and it's not as if the hand will necessarily be that much easier to play, either. (I mean, I guess we can fold to a ~pot-sized river bet if the flop action goes check, bet, call and then the turn action goes check, check -- but we're not going to be fully confident we were actually beat.)

Meanwhile, the actual flop check exercises some pot control at the cost of, to some degree, turning our hand face up (unless Villain fears that we're making a lol check with a monster). But as Villain's actual turn play indicates, this "pot control" won't necessarily be successful versus a player who began the hand with 48 BBs if he really wants to get his stack in.
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:49 PM
On the turn, given that you've decided to go to showdown (which gets what I think is our most difficult decision out of the way), I'm torn regarding what's the best way to go about it. The board is awfully drawy just to be calling, but then again, Villain may fire another big river bluff if he's drawing anyway, figuring he's committed to trying to push you off of your hand.

It is possible he'll freeze up with Ax after having a full-pot-sized bet called, so that seems like a factor in favor of just calling. I certainly wouldn't count on him freezing up, though.

He might dump a KT or JJ type hand he would have stacked off with, so that's another reason to favor calling.

Meanwhile, if he has a draw, he may figure he's committed with it anyway, which is a reason to charge him now if he's not really going to river barrel all-in with a bust.
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote
04-20-2008 , 07:57 PM
i bet flop here b/c we are called by not only Ax, but Tx, a T w/ a draw, a 9 and a draw, maybe even a dry 9, straight draws, flush draws, random one pairs that he might call with, then we can try to get to showdown after that imo, just cuz an ace hit doesn't mean you are turning your hand into a total bluff, the thing is, when we check behind, he almost always knows we don't have an ace, so he can bet with anything and we have no idea if he has an ace, a T, a 9, draw or what
NL50, QQ against unknown Quote

      
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