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NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board?

09-25-2021 , 08:46 AM
PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 146.6 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 161.96 BB
UTG: 100 BB
Hero (MP): 229.16 BB
CO: 104.08 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K A

fold, Hero raises to 2.48 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 10 BB, Hero calls 7.52 BB

Flop: (20.4 BB, 2 players) 2 J Q
BB bets 9.72 BB, Hero calls 9.72 BB

Turn: (39.84 BB, 2 players) 7
BB bets 29 BB, Hero calls 29 BB

River: (97.84 BB, 2 players) 3
BB checks, Hero bets how much?

Plan was to shove a lot of rivers if unimproved.

On a completing river however, I think we will only be betting the nuts. Problem is, when we have it we almost completely block villains call range and when we don't we unblock it.

What sizing would you use? What bluff combos would you choose?
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-25-2021 , 09:05 AM
tiny. very hard to have bluffs here. Very hard. I can imagine a Qx hand being bluffed
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-25-2021 , 09:37 AM
In theory jam would be correct sizing, as you said we just value bet Ac so BB should bet his Ac often.
As bluff just pick your worst hands Jx and weakest Qx.
Maybe exploitative strategy of value betting smaller would work better if you think he is folding a lot, but then bluff jam everything (he can't just defend Ac, Ac is like 10-15% of riv checking range).
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-25-2021 , 12:29 PM
Send me the raw HH. I want to throw this into the solver since it is deep.

I can see merits to both small and jam. Not sure which one to use.
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-25-2021 , 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
Send me the raw HH. I want to throw this into the solver since it is deep.

I can see merits to both small and jam. Not sure which one to use.
PokerStars Zoom Hand #230120139756: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2021/09/25 8:33:07 ET
Table 'Hydra' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ISBman ($36.65 in chips)
Seat 2: brpoker_pr0 ($25 in chips)
Seat 3: kartio111 ($40.49 in chips)
Seat 4: II1IIIII ($25 in chips)
Seat 5: iamwalrus123 ($57.29 in chips)
Seat 6: LiffeIsGood ($26.02 in chips)
brpoker_pr0: posts small blind $0.10
kartio111: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to iamwalrus123 [Kh Ac]
II1IIIII: folds
iamwalrus123: raises $0.37 to $0.62
LiffeIsGood: folds
ISBman: folds
brpoker_pr0: folds
kartio111: raises $1.88 to $2.50
iamwalrus123: calls $1.88
*** FLOP *** [2c Jc Qc]
kartio111: bets $2.43
iamwalrus123: calls $2.43
*** TURN *** [2c Jc Qc] [7d]
kartio111: bets $7.25
iamwalrus123: calls $7.25
*** RIVER *** [2c Jc Qc 7d] [3c]
kartio111: checks
iamwalrus123: bets $15.25
kartio111: folds
Uncalled bet ($15.25) returned to iamwalrus123
iamwalrus123 collected $23.36 from pot
iamwalrus123: doesn't show hand
kartio111 is disconnected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24.46 | Rake $1.10
Board [2c Jc Qc 7d 3c]
Seat 1: ISBman (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: brpoker_pr0 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: kartio111 (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: II1IIIII folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: iamwalrus123 collected ($23.36)
Seat 6: LiffeIsGood folded before Flop (didn't bet)
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-25-2021 , 10:22 PM
Interesting results. We never bet small here OTR with our hand. It's between 2/3 or pot.

So just ship it.

River sizing's are on the right. They are 1/3,2/3,pot and jam.



Another interesting note about deep stack (200BB) is that AKo is almost always just called when UTG/HJ open and we are in the BB.

Last edited by DooDooPoker; 09-25-2021 at 10:31 PM.
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-26-2021 , 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
Interesting results. We never bet small here OTR with our hand. It's between 2/3 or pot.

So just ship it.

River sizing's are on the right. They are 1/3,2/3,pot and jam.



Another interesting note about deep stack (200BB) is that AKo is almost always just called when UTG/HJ open and we are in the BB.
Thanks!

I don't know if I'm reading that right, doesn't it say we should be betting pot? And your sim is 200 deep.

Yeah the AK pre thing is interesting. I'm not sure where it lands when 160 deep.

I figure it's best to at least mix in some calls with AK (not sure what freq), esp. vs. unknown when I think pool under 3-bets from BB vs EP/MP.
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-26-2021 , 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haizemberg93
In theory jam would be correct sizing, as you said we just value bet Ac so BB should bet his Ac often.
As bluff just pick your worst hands Jx and weakest Qx.
Maybe exploitative strategy of value betting smaller would work better if you think he is folding a lot, but then bluff jam everything (he can't just defend Ac, Ac is like 10-15% of riv checking range).
From an exploitative standpoint, how often do you think villain is checking the nuts here? My guess would be not very often at all?

I wonder how a strategy of shove everything would work here
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-26-2021 , 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YARR123
Thanks!

I don't know if I'm reading that right, doesn't it say we should be betting pot? And your sim is 200 deep.

Yeah the AK pre thing is interesting. I'm not sure where it lands when 160 deep.

I figure it's best to at least mix in some calls with AK (not sure what freq), esp. vs. unknown when I think pool under 3-bets from BB vs EP/MP.
Yeah mostly pot and then a small 2/3 pot. So we can just pot it here.

AKo was still mostly called at 160BB.
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-26-2021 , 04:27 PM
imo if you jam this hand you never ever get called except vs. fish. But you can continue jamming if you want.
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-26-2021 , 10:01 PM
What are our bluffs?
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-27-2021 , 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YARR123
From an exploitative standpoint, how often do you think villain is checking the nuts here? My guess would be not very often at all?

I wonder how a strategy of shove everything would work here
If i were in his shoes i probably x 0% Ac, but as i said maybe 10-15% would be my guess.
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-27-2021 , 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flpmethntsdlr
What are our bluffs?
non top pair hand and i guess weakest top pairs, hands that block ofsuit broadways mostly, kts if we are even calling pre, but i m not sure if we are even supposed to call hands like ajhh vs half pot otf at all, it's a qestion to forum GTO bots
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-27-2021 , 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
non top pair hand and i guess weakest top pairs, hands that block ofsuit broadways mostly, kts if we are even calling pre, but i m not sure if we are even supposed to call hands like ajhh vs half pot otf at all, it's a qestion to forum GTO bots
I'm folding a lot of straight draws OTT on this texture to 1/2 PSB, I might even fold T9s otf. Maybe that's a mistake, I tend not to think about that much. The weakest hand I call OTT I think is AQs, so maybe one of those?

I always try to think of these things before I jam river with my value range. If I can't think of any hands I am bluffing with on a four flush runout, I tend to not go so large with my value because I want to get called. Other spots are clear what bluffs I can have, but these, not so much and mainly because I haven't put that much thought into it.
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-27-2021 , 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flpmethntsdlr
I'm folding a lot of straight draws OTT on this texture to 1/2 PSB, I might even fold T9s otf. Maybe that's a mistake, I tend not to think about that much. The weakest hand I call OTT I think is AQs, so maybe one of those?
kqs then is weakest
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote
09-27-2021 , 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
kqs then is weakest
I concur. Are we jamming smaller flushes OTT?
NL25z: River sizing with nuts on 4-flush board? Quote

      
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