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NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision
View Poll Results: What to do on the river
fold
4 100.00%
call
0 0%

10-04-2024 , 02:25 AM
Villain 28/20, 3bet: 6%, seems aggro and has been calling my 3bets a lot. Fold to 3bet% is 64%. No proper samples of 4betting behaviour yet

Questions:

1) Was my 4bet call too loose preflop? But when he 4bets, should I just fold? Or should I... JAM?

2) Can I ever call this river profitably?

Hero (SB): $42.75 (171 bb)
BB: $29.32 (117.3 bb)
MP: $12.72 (50.9 bb)
CO: $27.75 (111 bb)
BTN: $32.46 (129.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T T
2 folds, BTN raises to $0.55, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, BTN raises to $5.50, Hero calls $3.00

Flop: ($11.25) J A 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.22, Hero calls $3.22

Turn: ($17.69) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($17.69) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $9.29, Hero?
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-04-2024 , 05:03 AM
So what range do you 3bet sb v btn? Because in theory I would think if you fold this to the 4bet you are overfolding. However, in practise at these limits 4bets seem so tight that it might be ok but for $3 more I prob click the call btn. You can jam but it probably burns money against most players

Flop is terrible for TT so just fold. If he is 4bet bluffing he's prob doing it with a lot of Ax anyway

River is still a fold I think
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-04-2024 , 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogman3
So what range do you 3bet sb v btn? Because in theory I would think if you fold this to the 4bet you are overfolding. However, in practise at these limits 4bets seem so tight that it might be ok but for $3 more I prob click the call btn. You can jam but it probably burns money against most players

Flop is terrible for TT so just fold. If he is 4bet bluffing he's prob doing it with a lot of Ax anyway

River is still a fold I think
Sounds reasonable. But isn't villain betting that kind of flop almost always with underpairs too? 99 for example
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-04-2024 , 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher-
Sounds reasonable. But isn't villain betting that kind of flop almost always with underpairs too? 99 for example
Firstly, the majority of players will not 4bet a hand like 33-99. They call in position hoping to hit a set
Secondly, you don't just think of a hand or 2 you beat and make that a reason to call. Even if he turns his underpairs into a bluff you're still screwed against his range. Even KQ has good equity against you.
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-04-2024 , 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogman3
Firstly, the majority of players will not 4bet a hand like 33-99. They call in position hoping to hit a set
Secondly, you don't just think of a hand or 2 you beat and make that a reason to call. Even if he turns his underpairs into a bluff you're still screwed against his range. Even KQ has good equity against you.
Sounds good
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-04-2024 , 06:35 AM
Looks similar to that hand 99 vs 66 on ATxxx board, at best these kinda spots are break-even imo.
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-04-2024 , 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeKayBee
Looks similar to that hand 99 vs 66 on ATxxx board, at best these kinda spots are break-even imo.
Haha true
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-04-2024 , 05:15 PM
6% 3bet is very nitty.
Fold flop
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-05-2024 , 02:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogman3
Flop is terrible for TT so just fold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haizemberg93
6% 3bet is very nitty.
Fold flop
Shouldnt we fold pf against 4bet if we are going to fold on most overcard flops? That would save money. And even if flop is like 842r villain still has overcards better than TT that beats us.

Im not trying to be cheeky. I wanna learn!
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-05-2024 , 03:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher-
Shouldnt we fold pf against 4bet if we are going to fold on most overcard flops? That would save money. And even if flop is like 842r villain still has overcards better than TT that beats us.

Im not trying to be cheeky. I wanna learn!
Well what is his value 4bet range? Lets say he 4bets JJ+ AK for value - on an AJx flop there is not one hand you beat. On an 842r your TT is ahead of the AK in his range. AK is 16 combos whilst JJ-AA is 24 combos in total. So on the 1st flop you are ahead of 0% his value range and on the 2nd you are ahead of 40%. It's a better flop for you with TT.
If he only 4bets QQ+ then it doesnt matter what the flop is - you need a ten lol

If you consider his 4bet bluffs they will often be hands like A5s AJo etc - again, more hands that beat you on an AJx flop

If it all sounds like a shitty spot well you have to consider that you call $3 to see a pot of $11.25 so you need to win <30% of the time . Of course there are further streets to play and this is why you don't want to keep putting money into a bad situation

To answer your question, this is a particularly bad flop for you. On a Qxx flop, for example, you will have a lot more equity against his range because all his Ax hands have missed.
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-05-2024 , 03:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogman3
Well what is his value 4bet range? Lets say he 4bets JJ+ AK for value - on an AJx flop there is not one hand you beat. On an 842r your TT is ahead of the AK in his range. AK is 16 combos whilst JJ-AA is 24 combos in total. So on the 1st flop you are ahead of 0% his value range and on the 2nd you are ahead of 40%. It's a better flop for you with TT.
If he only 4bets QQ+ then it doesnt matter what the flop is - you need a ten lol

If you consider his 4bet bluffs they will often be hands like A5s AJo etc - again, more hands that beat you on an AJx flop

If it all sounds like a shitty spot well you have to consider that you call $3 to see a pot of $11.25 so you need to win <30% of the time . Of course there are further streets to play and this is why you don't want to keep putting money into a bad situation

To answer your question, this is a particularly bad flop for you. On a Qxx flop, for example, you will have a lot more equity against his range because all his Ax hands have missed.
Omg thank you so much. It makes so much more sense now. I really appreciate for taking all this effort to write long posts like these!
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-05-2024 , 11:19 AM
This does not mean that by calling preflop and calling river it was "right" in the long run. Thank you for all the answers.

I actually think that when I bluff people overcall too much so I shouldnt bluff but when people bluff me I overfold too much. It is like an eternal loop I cannot escape. Im trying to find CLARITY and you guys are my HOPE

Hero (SB): $42.75 (171 bb)
BB: $29.32 (117.3 bb)
MP: $12.72 (50.9 bb)
CO: $27.75 (111 bb)
BTN: $32.46 (129.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T T
2 folds, BTN raises to $0.55, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, BTN raises to $5.50, Hero calls $3.00

Flop: ($11.25) J A 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.22, Hero calls $3.22

Turn: ($17.69) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($17.69) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $9.29, Hero calls $9.29

Results: $36.27 pot ($1.63 rake)
Final Board: J A 4 7 A
Hero showed T T and won $34.64 ($16.63 net)
BTN showed 2 Q and lost (-$18.01 net)
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-05-2024 , 11:32 AM
The only clarity is 'don't do dumb ****' slasher. Sometimes dumb **** will work. Sometimes dumb **** will work 5 times in a row. But all you can do is work out what dumb **** is and avoid it. I would argue(with all due respect sir slasher) that both players in this particular hand did 'dumb ****'.
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-05-2024 , 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andymc1
The only clarity is 'don't do dumb ****' slasher. Sometimes dumb **** will work. Sometimes dumb **** will work 5 times in a row. But all you can do is work out what dumb **** is and avoid it. I would argue(with all due respect sir slasher) that both players in this particular hand did 'dumb ****'.
You are absolutely right Sir Andy. I think this hand was PSYCHO vs PSYCHO. But a voice said to me "CALL MY SON, CALL" And I did.... but I still think this is -EV. You my fellow comrades here on 2plus2 are my only hope. Thank you my brothers and sisters for not turning me a NEW HELLMUTH

edit: this mesage has been written after 4 glasses of red wine
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-05-2024 , 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher-
You are absolutely right Sir Andy. I think this hand was PSYCHO vs PSYCHO. But a voice said to me "CALL MY SON, CALL" And I did.... but I still think this is -EV. You my fellow comrades here on 2plus2 are my only hope. Thank you my brothers and sisters for not turning me a NEW HELLMUTH

edit: this mesage has been written after 4 glasses of red wine
If thats your style then it can work. You don't have to follow theory. As you can see with the Q2o 4bet your opponents clearly arent
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote
10-05-2024 , 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogman3
If thats your style then it can work. You don't have to follow theory. As you can see with the Q2o 4bet your opponents clearly arent
Dont know what my style is but I wanna be playing with the best style!
NL25 - 4bet pot with TT, tough river decision Quote

      
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