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Old 04-12-2012, 10:55 AM   #151
Queen6Suited
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

ymu, this is the last post i'm making itt because you just tilt me.
Why do you think that despite the fact that noone ITT agrees with you, and lots of good micro players have disagreed and proven you wrong, that you are right?
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:03 AM   #152
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

OK, here's some ranges. The restealer from the blind is restealing a fairly solid top 9% and I'm calling with about 2/3 of my opening range from the CO, which is 19.2% of hands, but not the obvious 19.2%.

Match these up on all-ins and they don't do so well:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

48,482,175,456 games 0.375 secs 129,285,801,216 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.675% 58.65% 01.02% 28436962756 494762834.00 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 40.325% 39.30% 01.02% 19055687032 494762834.00 { 22+, A8s+, A5s-A2s, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, AKo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o }

40% equity against a fairly tight restealing range.

But we're not going all in. We have three more streets to play. The kinds of hands that we are playing can all make nut hands over the course of five cards, and we will know on the flop how good our chances are of winning by showdown. Hopeless cases (50%ish) can be dumped with no further loss. The rest can carry on with strong draws, if villain has a strong enough hand to pay us off if we hit, and if they don't seem to want the pot very much, we can try to take it away whilst building it for those times we hit the nuts.

Because we're not blindly carrying on, but assessing our equity against villain's range, and our fold equity against his range, and our implied odds (and reverse implied odds) if we hit our hands by the river, we can chuck out a lot of that -EV for a push because we will be folding that part of our range.

I don't think a TAG folds 98s to a 3bet on the BTN. It's a great hand to play in position.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:15 AM   #153
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by Queen6Suited View Post
ymu, this is the last post i'm making itt because you just tilt me.
Why do you think that despite the fact that noone ITT agrees with you, and lots of good micro players have disagreed and proven you wrong, that you are right?
Because what you're saying about these strategies is wrong.

There's no point me trying to find yet another way to explain it. This is a good short summary.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:20 AM   #154
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by ymu View Post
Because what you're saying about these strategies is wrong.

There's no point me trying to find yet another way to explain it. This is a good short summary.
there's a reason you're still playing 25nl sir

not only are a lot of your thought processes wrong, but more importantly, you're so convinced you've got it figured out you won't allow them to be adjusted. it's a very poor way to approach poker, and i expect you'll be preaching the same nonsense a year and 500k more hands later
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:02 PM   #155
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ymu View Post
Well yeah, the Phil Ivey's of this world need different strategies than the fish because they'll know what you're up to.
But you're ignoring the topic which was a question of how to play a balanced range against different players.

You write, "I think optimal bluff frequencies do vary by opponent later in the hand." This is wrong.

Look at a river situation. You're in position, the Villain needs to always check to you and then has the option of either calling or folding.

Hero's Range:
AA-KK, TT-99 = 24 combos
Air = 24 combos

RIVER ($20) = 2 2 2 3 3

Villain checks, Hero bets $10.

Let's examine what an optimal betting range would be on this river vs different opponents.

LAGSs RANGE:
QQ-JJ= 12 combos
99-44 = 36 combos
TOTAL COMBOS = 48

So let's assume that the Villain is going to call with a GTO range, so he doesn't allow us to be able to make money bluffing. In this situation, he needs to defend 66% of the time. So he needs to defend 32 hands.

LAGs Balanced Calling Range on the river:
QQ-JJ= 12 combos
99-77 = 18 combos
66 = 2 combos
TOTAL COMBOS = 32 hands

Now as long as our hand has 50% equity or more against his calling range than we should bet for value.

Hero's Value range:
AA-KK = 12 combos
TT-99 = 12 combos
TOTAL COMBOS = 24 combos

And then we want to include enough bluffs to make the Villain indifferent to calling. Since the Villain is getting 3-1 on a call, our ratio of value to bluffs should be the same.

Hero's Bluffing Range:
Air = 8 combos

So our entire betting range = 32 combos
Our checking back range = 16 combos of air

For the Villain, the EV of his call = 0 against our range which is exactly the same as his EV of folding... this is why our range is balanced.

Let's compare this to a TAG on the river. On the same river, the TAG is going to have a tighter range:

TAGs range:
QQ-JJ = 12 combos
88 = 6 combos

The TAG defending frequency is exactly the same as the LAG to make us indifferent to bluffing. The tag needs to defend 66% of his range.

TAGs Balanced defending range:
QQ-JJ = 12 combos

So now our value range will be different against the TAG. We can't value bet TT-99 any longer, since it's higher EV to check them back.

So our balanced range against the TAG:
AA-KK = 12 combos
Air = 4 combos

But you should note that the ratio or our bluffing frequency is EXACTLY the same whether it's against the LAG or TAG. We are bluffing at a ratio of 3-1 or 25% of our entire betting range.

Hero's Balanced Betting Range against LAG = 32 combos
Hero's Balanced Betting range against TAG = 16 combos
But our bluffing frequency is exactly the same against both opponents...25%.


Quote:
Someone who is folding 70% to a cbet has a lot more value in their range than someone who floats 100%.
So let's say that our opponent the LAG is a sLAG (stupid lag), and he's going to call on the river with all of his bluff catchers because he doesn't want to get pushed around.

In this case, the correct strategy for the Hero is to NOT play balanced, the best strategy is to just bet all of our value hands and NEVER bluff.
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:20 PM   #156
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ymu View Post
OK, here's some ranges. The restealer from the blind is restealing a fairly solid top 9% and I'm calling with about 2/3 of my opening range from the CO, which is 19.2% of hands, but not the obvious 19.2%.

Match these up on all-ins and they don't do so well:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

48,482,175,456 games 0.375 secs 129,285,801,216 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.675% 58.65% 01.02% 28436962756 494762834.00 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 40.325% 39.30% 01.02% 19055687032 494762834.00 { 22+, A8s+, A5s-A2s, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, AKo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o }

40% equity against a fairly tight restealing range.

But we're not going all in. We have three more streets to play. The kinds of hands that we are playing can all make nut hands over the course of five cards, and we will know on the flop how good our chances are of winning by showdown. Hopeless cases (50%ish) can be dumped with no further loss. The rest can carry on with strong draws, if villain has a strong enough hand to pay us off if we hit, and if they don't seem to want the pot very much, we can try to take it away whilst building it for those times we hit the nuts.

Because we're not blindly carrying on, but assessing our equity against villain's range, and our fold equity against his range, and our implied odds (and reverse implied odds) if we hit our hands by the river, we can chuck out a lot of that -EV for a push because we will be folding that part of our range.

I don't think a TAG folds 98s to a 3bet on the BTN. It's a great hand to play in position.
Let's assume that your opponent notices that you're never folding to a 3-bet, since you're calling with T9o. He adjusts by only 3-betting AA. How do you think that you can profitably call T9o against a range of only AA... even if there's more cards to come.

But let's try and give you a fighting chance, even if the Villain like most micro stakes player, includes some bluffs. Let's say his value to bluffing range is 2:1... so 33% of his 3-betting range is bluffs. Do you think you can still profitably defend T9o?
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Old 04-12-2012, 02:59 PM   #157
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

this is actually turning into a really good thread with various detailed responses as to why ymu's posts are wrong
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:51 PM   #158
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowBright View Post
But you're ignoring the topic which was a question of how to play a balanced range against different players.

You write, "I think optimal bluff frequencies do vary by opponent later in the hand." This is wrong.

Look at a river situation. You're in position, the Villain needs to always check to you and then has the option of either calling or folding.

Hero's Range:
AA-KK, TT-99 = 24 combos
Air = 24 combos

RIVER ($20) = 2 2 2 3 3

Villain checks, Hero bets $10.

Let's examine what an optimal betting range would be on this river vs different opponents.

LAGSs RANGE:
QQ-JJ= 12 combos
99-44 = 36 combos
TOTAL COMBOS = 48

So let's assume that the Villain is going to call with a GTO range, so he doesn't allow us to be able to make money bluffing. In this situation, he needs to defend 66% of the time. So he needs to defend 32 hands.

LAGs Balanced Calling Range on the river:
QQ-JJ= 12 combos
99-77 = 18 combos
66 = 2 combos
TOTAL COMBOS = 32 hands

Now as long as our hand has 50% equity or more against his calling range than we should bet for value.

Hero's Value range:
AA-KK = 12 combos
TT-99 = 12 combos
TOTAL COMBOS = 24 combos

And then we want to include enough bluffs to make the Villain indifferent to calling. Since the Villain is getting 3-1 on a call, our ratio of value to bluffs should be the same.

Hero's Bluffing Range:
Air = 8 combos

So our entire betting range = 32 combos
Our checking back range = 16 combos of air

For the Villain, the EV of his call = 0 against our range which is exactly the same as his EV of folding... this is why our range is balanced.

Let's compare this to a TAG on the river. On the same river, the TAG is going to have a tighter range:

TAGs range:
QQ-JJ = 12 combos
88 = 6 combos

The TAG defending frequency is exactly the same as the LAG to make us indifferent to bluffing. The tag needs to defend 66% of his range.

TAGs Balanced defending range:
QQ-JJ = 12 combos

So now our value range will be different against the TAG. We can't value bet TT-99 any longer, since it's higher EV to check them back.

So our balanced range against the TAG:
AA-KK = 12 combos
Air = 4 combos

But you should note that the ratio or our bluffing frequency is EXACTLY the same whether it's against the LAG or TAG. We are bluffing at a ratio of 3-1 or 25% of our entire betting range.

Hero's Balanced Betting Range against LAG = 32 combos
Hero's Balanced Betting range against TAG = 16 combos
But our bluffing frequency is exactly the same against both opponents...25%.



So let's say that our opponent the LAG is a sLAG (stupid lag), and he's going to call on the river with all of his bluff catchers because he doesn't want to get pushed around.

In this case, the correct strategy for the Hero is to NOT play balanced, the best strategy is to just bet all of our value hands and NEVER bluff.
yeah this. nice post
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:09 PM   #159
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowBright View Post
tl;dr...jk
very nice...A+ post
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:48 PM   #160
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiego View Post
this is actually turning into a really good thread with various detailed responses as to why ymu's posts are wrong
+1, if you chopped out all the posts with people rebutting ymu (especially goonercam and rainbow bright going to the trouble of breaking it down) and made a new thread from those you'd have a pretty decent thread about balancing and it's relevance to the micros.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:55 PM   #161
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

LAGs understand implied odds and reverse implied odds. That's why, in this situation, they play hands that can stack big pairs and which won't easily get stacked by a big pair.

The hand in the OP is standard LAG. Which is why I put T9 in villain's range when nobody else did.

If you don't want to believe me, that is fine. I will stack you easier. It's all good.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:08 PM   #162
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

pretty sure everyone in this thread is getting leveled
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:28 PM   #163
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

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pretty sure everyone in this thread is getting leveled
It's the only way we can excuse this idiocy.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:32 PM   #164
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Seriously, ymu, I know there's a lot of obstinance thrown your way, but it is so incredibly disrespectful of you to ignore some great explanations of why you're wrong by just insisting that calling 3-bets with T9o is standard and profitable.

It's also completely ignoring the explanations of what a balanced range/strategy is and why your 33 hand can never be balanced.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:07 PM   #165
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
Seriously, ymu, I know there's a lot of obstinance thrown your way, but it is so incredibly disrespectful of you to ignore some great explanations of why you're wrong by just insisting that calling 3-bets with T9o is standard and profitable.

It's also completely ignoring the explanations of what a balanced range/strategy is and why your 33 hand can never be balanced.
The 33 hand has nothing to do with my balanced strategy (apart from how often I try this bluff against different players). It is to do with the PFR's unbalanced strategy of cbetting too much and folding to a raise too easily. I don't raise someone who cbets 45%. If they're cbetting 100% then raising wins you the pot 50% and may get the pot checked down to the river. Fit or fold is a fish strategy, not good poker.

If you're not spotting good bluffing opportunities, raise-folding 80% in position, and calling 3bets only with hands that are easily stacked by the 3betters range but will almost never stack them, then you are lighting money on fire.

Last edited by ymu; 04-12-2012 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:13 PM   #166
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by ymu View Post
The 33 hand has nothing to do with our balanced strategy.
This is a quote from you in post #117 in regards to the 33 hand, "It's a balanced strategy over all ranges that I find myself in that spot with".

You're talking in circles.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:18 PM   #167
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Not to mention i dunno wtf "over all ranges" means
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:22 PM   #168
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Look, this is really basic stuff. Dunno what all the semantics about balance is - I try to balance my lines and ranges, so I think we're just talking about different things.

But this **** about what cards you play in LP for a 3bet has got to stop. It is just plain wrong.

Here's a more in depth strategy article than the one I posted earlier. He's talking about TAG play here because this has nothing to do with playing style. It is just basic good poker.

Don't come back with glib one-liners based on some beginner's hand range chart. You need to make an actual argument based on the modern game, not the one Doyle Brunson was playing 50 years ago. It's shocking to see this kind of advice being given out on 2p2. ABC works at NL25 but most players will move up, and you need to have these moves before you are faced with better competition.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:29 PM   #169
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ymu View Post
Look, this is really basic stuff. Dunno what all the semantics about balance is - I try to balance my lines and ranges, so I think we're just talking about different things.

But this **** about what cards you play in LP for a 3bet has got to stop. It is just plain wrong.

Here's a more in depth strategy article than the one I posted earlier. He's talking about TAG play here because this has nothing to do with playing style. It is just basic good poker.

Don't come back with glib one-liners based on some beginner's hand range chart. You need to make an actual argument based on the modern game, not the one Doyle Brunson was playing 50 years ago. It's shocking to see this kind of advice being given out on 2p2. ABC works at NL25 but most players will move up, and you need to have these moves before you are faced with better competition.
This is the most epic strawman I've ever seen. You're not even responding the in-depth explanatory responses people have given in this thread.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:31 PM   #170
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

100bbs deep calling a 3bet ip w T9o is burning money against anyone, this is 6m, not hu
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:32 PM   #171
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ymu View Post
Look, this is really basic stuff. Dunno what all the semantics about balance is - I try to balance my lines and ranges, so I think we're just talking about different things.
Fwiw, it's not a question of semantics. You misapply the idea of balance, you use an exploitative strategy (which fwiw, is the best strategy to employ in the vast majority of cases, however, it's probably going to be difficult to employ it correctly without understand what balanced ranges look like).

But instead of deflecting, why don't you just say, "thank you" for taking the time to explain it to me.

Quote:
But this **** about what cards you play in LP for a 3bet has got to stop. It is just plain wrong.

Here's a more in depth strategy article than the one I posted earlier. He's talking about TAG play here because this has nothing to do with playing style. It is just basic good poker.

Don't come back with glib one-liners based on some beginner's hand range chart. You need to make an actual argument based on the modern game, not the one Doyle Brunson was playing 50 years ago. It's shocking to see this kind of advice being given out on 2p2. ABC works at NL25 but most players will move up, and you need to have these moves before you are faced with better competition.
Fwiw, in that article he didn't really say anything, but at the same time it still backs up the point everyone else is making.

I gave a very long and detailed post in #142...which gives a mathematical solution for a balanced calling range of a 3-bet based on specific assumptions. So why don't you either go through that post and explain to me why you should be calling with T9o and not better hands.

However, let's say that you're such a good LAG that you don't play a balanced strategy and instead call super wide with hands like T9o. It's my contention that I can tell you the exact range of hands that I'll play and exactly how I will play them and you still can't profitably call with T9o.

I think a common ratio of players at this level would be something like 1 bluff hand for every 2 value hands. In other words 33% of his hands will be bluffs.

VALUE 3-BET RANGE:
AA-JJ, AK = 3% of hands

BLUFF 3-BET RANGE:
AXs = .5%
Middle suited connectors including some QXs and KXs = .5%
22-55 = .5%
________
Total = 1.5%

And my game plan is to pot every flop and shove every turn. And if you raise my flop bet, I'll call with enough hands so you can't profitably bluff on all boards -- the exact frequency will depend on your raise size. And even with this ******ed strategy, I still don't think you can call with T9o profitably.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:54 PM   #172
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

That is exactly how I said the OP should play this hand. Based on the read I had that everyone is scoffing at.

With players like you, I force you to offer me a freeroll. If I have enough outs against your range, I'm reshoving the flop. If I've flopped the nuts, I'll work out if you're stupid enough to hang yourself on the turn.

This is why we play these hands in position.

Against other sorts of players, it works out differently. If you're choosing hands before looking at situations, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:31 PM   #173
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by ymu View Post
That is exactly how I said the OP should play this hand. Based on the read I had that everyone is scoffing at.
fwiw, this is a stupid way for me to play my entire range, but even so you still can't play T9o profitably against it. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Quote:
With players like you, I force you to offer me a free-roll.
I think your understanding of what "free roll" means is about as sophisticated as your understanding of what "balance" means. Stop just putting catch phrases in a sentence and actually thinking they mean something.

Quote:
If I have enough outs against your range, I'm reshoving the flop.
Great. What is "enough outs". You tell me... gut shot? over-cards? flush-draw?

Quote:
If I've flopped the nuts, I'll work out if you're stupid enough to hang yourself on the turn
I'm shoving the turn with my entire range, so yes my strategy is so stupid that I will always "hang myself". So just tell me with what strength of hands in addition to the nuts that you're calling the flop and turn with... Top Pair? Middle Pair? etc

Quote:
This is why we play these hands in position.
Yeah, let's not get into a discussion of the value of position, please. Let's try and keep it to the topic at hand, but I do want to congratulate you on throwing in another catch phrase.

Quote:
If you're choosing hands before looking at situations, you're doing it wrong.
I couldn't agree more and even still after choosing all my hands ahead of time and telling you what I will do with every hand on every board, I still don't think you can profitably call T9o to a 3-bet.

So just answer my questions above and I'll run an EV calculation, and we'll see if it's plus or minus EV.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:32 PM   #174
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

you do realize some hands play way better than others because they either hit tp often or are able to hit more flops with backdoorequity and whatnot?

that is why we can call both AQo and JTs in position. and why we cant call T9o, given 100bb stacks
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:40 PM   #175
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Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Let's give you a really tight range and a good board to cbet with pretty much all of it.

Board: As Js Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.113% 55.68% 00.44% 47953 377.50 { 99+, A9s+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 43.887% 43.45% 00.44% 37422 377.50 { 9s8s }

I don't need much FE to profit when you're restealing tight, let alone loose.

If you only cbet when you hit huge, are you going to check a wet board like that and let me choose whether or not to take a free card?

Position is hard to counter.

But your general defence strategy is correct. Bet the flop like you mean it, and he knows you're playing for stacks if he wants to make a move. That makes it a lot easier to get his range right if you face a raise. And if you get his range right, it'll be easier for you to stack hiim than him you.

But to get his range right, you need to be able to believe that his hand is in his range.
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