Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Online No-Limit Hold’em Cash Discussion of no-limit hold’em online cash games of all stakes, including pot-limit and cap games.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-11-2012, 11:32 AM   #76
Queen6Suited
banned
 
Queen6Suited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 3,876
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ymu View Post
None of these plays are read-independent. I've danced with these villains before, and I have an idea of what they will do with the different bits of their range.

The point of developing balanced strategies for various types of hand and board texture, against certain villains, in and out of position, is to try and play optimally over both our hand ranges, and to make it very difficult to read my hand. There are no spots I always bluff at and there are no spots where I am always getting value. My bet-sizing depends on the board and the line I've chosen against villain, not my hand. Etc etc.

That's not so simple to achieve, but if you bluff convincingly at a lot of boards where monsters lurk, you will be more likely to get paid off big when you have a monster, as well as winning a lot of smaller pots where no one else really wants to fight for it. This makes up for the 50-60bb pots you lose on the way to setting up these situations. If you start getting called down too much, choose the line with more value hands. If you stop getting action, shift the ratio back to bluffs.

It's a very stressful strategy in many ways, but it does help you to let go of the tilt on losing a big pot. And it's fun. Especially if there's another LAG and between you you're raising 2/3 of the hands preflop and playing half of them against each other.
Okay, copy and paste your notes and the villains stats for the two hands you posted, and we'll decide if they are wp. I can think of almost 0 situations where they would be.

Also you still haven't answered my question, how can you be balanced when your raising pretty much the worst hand equity wise on that board?
Queen6Suited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:39 AM   #77
ymu
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,060
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftwise View Post
Ya pretty much 100% sure you don't know what being balanced means. Or if you do please let me know specifically what your doing to make sure you're balanced on that 33 hand (and not just well I can show up with anything here, and its read-dependent, etc.) since like Queen6suited said, unless you have some really really weird strategy for it your definitely not going to be balanced there.
You're kidding me. That 33 hand is pretty standard TAG.

Whatever TAGfish do here, TAGs raise-call. The key difference is that LAGs raise a higher percent of hands from late position than TAGs - precisely how many depends on the players between them and the button. They call 3bets from the blinds in position with most of their range, especially if the 3betting player resteals from the blinds more than they normally 3bet. A villain with a 9-14% resteal, a high % cbet, and ideally a high fold flop to cbet %, is good for this line. It means they are thinking about our hand, and aren't as strong as they usually would be in a pot this big.

The hands LAGs fold are easily dominated As and broadway. They keep AK/pairs/connectors and maybe some suited As. Depends a bit on villains range for 3betting light and post-flop tendencies. Hands that allow us to hit monsters, and especially to bluff with outs to a monster, are great.

We're not folding to a cbet when he cbets >90% and 100% in 3bet pots. His range is 50/50 air and a lot of better hands fold to a raise. Our hand is entirely irrelevant. We're raising to test out how strong he is, knowing that he will fold often enough for the bluff to show a profit, and that we can fold to a 3bet with no regrets.

TAGS do this less often than LAGs because they raise fewer hands in LP, and because they use their tight image to deploy the odd stealth bluff with a high success rate. LAGs are playing the exact same hands as a TAG, plus about 30-50% more. They win at showdown less often, but they tend to win bigger pots because they use their loose image to get called down lighter when they have a big hand.

I'm not really convinced that there is any value in regarding these two as rigid categories. TAGfish, LAGfish, rockfish and station are good general descriptors for weak players, but those playing actual TAG (not nit) or LAG aren't so very far away from each other. TAGs advertise on the cheap by being more selective with their hands and stealth bluff in good spots, LAGs take out expensive advertising in the hope of bigger returns on those rare occasions where we have what everyone is afraid of on a scary board and are basically playing TAG 70% of the time. You just don't know when they're holding a TAG hand or a LAG hand, so you are forced to guess, which means you make more mistakes.

Last edited by ymu; 04-11-2012 at 11:53 AM.
ymu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:45 AM   #78
Queen6Suited
banned
 
Queen6Suited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 3,876
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Okay would you ever raise that board for value? No obv not.
Hence it is a horrible play as you rep nothing, and once you play against anyone who can handread, repping nothing is the best way to get people to station down Ahi. (obv 33 is ahead of Ahi but you think its a bluff so thats not the point.)
Queen6Suited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:55 AM   #79
Sc00by
Pooh-Bah
 
Sc00by's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Someday I'll be Saturday night...
Posts: 4,485
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

ymu

Laughing so hard at this thread.

Levelling the **** out of everyone ITT AINEC!

NH sir!
Sc00by is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:56 AM   #80
ymu
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,060
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen6Suited View Post
Okay, copy and paste your notes and the villains stats for the two hands you posted, and we'll decide if they are wp. I can think of almost 0 situations where they would be.

Also you still haven't answered my question, how can you be balanced when your raising pretty much the worst hand equity wise on that board?
It's not a value raise.
ymu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:03 PM   #81
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 14,557
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

I don't think you know what balance is.

I thought you didn't before, but now I'm pretty confident.
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:05 PM   #82
Burnss
Pooh-Bah
 
Burnss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: #TeamPingu
Posts: 4,539
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sc00by View Post
ymu
Burnss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:12 PM   #83
Queen6Suited
banned
 
Queen6Suited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 3,876
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ymu View Post
It's not a value raise.
just read what GoonerCam said, he explained it already and i cbf.
Also if this a level than wp.
Queen6Suited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:22 PM   #84
ymu
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,060
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
I don't think you know what balance is.

I thought you didn't before, but now I'm pretty confident.
I'm pretty sure it's you that doesn't get the concept.

Quote:
Exploitative Strategy:

is a strategy which will maximize our EV by making the action which has the highest EV based on the assumptions we make about the opponents ranges and tendencies. The goal is to exploit leaks in our opponents game to the maximum effect. For example, if we are in position on the river and we assume that our opponent will fold 100% of his range to a bet, then we maximize our EV by betting and bluffing 100% of the time on the river. On other hand, if we’re on the same river, but we assume that our opponent will call a river bet 100% of the time, then we maximize our EV by never bluffing and betting all hands which have more than 50% equity against the opponents calling range. We are able to exploit our opponents leak because she has an unbalance of either folding too much or calling too much.

Balanced Strategy:

is a defensive strategy designed to keep our Opponents from exploiting us. You design your ranges to be balanced so the Villain cannot increase his EV by using an exploitative strategy. For example, a balanced betting range has an optimal mix of value and bluff hands, so the Villain is indifferent to calling with the bottom of his bluff catching range. A balanced calling range defends enough so the Villain cannot bet 100% of his bluffs profitably. If the Villain is not playing a balanced strategy as well, then he could improve his EV by switching from an exploitative strategy to a balanced strategy. However, if we are employing a balanced strategy, we only maximize our EV if our opponent is playing a balanced strategy as well.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...egies-1148105/
That last line is why NL25 is not the place to use this for profit, only for practice. As you move up, your opponents get better and will be thinking less about individual hands and more about lines and balance to avoid being exploited.

That excerpt is from a long article and thread. Good readings.
ymu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:25 PM   #85
Queen6Suited
banned
 
Queen6Suited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 3,876
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Yeah but you're playing neither balanced or optimally fromt he hands you posted.
Queen6Suited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:27 PM   #86
Bladesman87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 14,557
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

*massive sigh*

What you're being asked is: if you're raising 33 as a bluff, how do you possibly balance that range?
Bladesman87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:33 PM   #87
ymu
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,060
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

I raise the nuts too. How is that hard to guess?
ymu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:33 PM   #88
GOONERCAM
Resident Rollbuster
 
GOONERCAM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Where Pigs Fly
Posts: 7,994
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

anyway, i did a little work on some of the info you gave earlier, took a standardised open of 21% and fold to 3bet of 33% to give you a 14%ish defense range vs a 3bet, then plugged in all pairs (since you're calling 33 and you're a little deeper) and some other connected type hands (including half the combos of T9o, since it's a hand that a good lag like yourself would show up with, maybe half the time ) and got to a total defense of 17.6% or 234 combos

{ JJ-22, AQs-ATs, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td9h, Td9s, Th9s, Ts9h }]

in the 33 hand

villain is getting pot odds on a flop bet of 5.25 : 2.50, which means he is insta profiting if we fold more than 2.50/(5.25+2.50) = 32% i.e. we have to defend 68% of our range to avoid being exploited

Flop is 2c Qc Jh

Card Removal gives us ;

JJ-22, AQs-ATs, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td9h, Td9s, Th9s, Ts9h 157 (11.84%) 234 (17.65%)

157 combos getting to the flop, and so we need to defend .68*157 = 106 combos

Value Range;

22, JJ, QJ, 9Tcc, 89cc, KTcc, ATcc, K9cc, AJcc, KJcc = 3 + 3 + 9 + 7 = 22 combos

we balance this by finding 22 bluff combos, but it makes more sense to think about combos we want to flat first

106 - 2*22 = 60 combos

AQ, KQ, QT, AJ, KJ, JTcc, J9cc, = 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 2 = 62 combos

a couple more than optimal but not enough to be a big deal

and so to the bluff combos of which we need 20-22

using the open enders makes the most sense, picking the ones with bdfd's makes even more and so we could go for something like this;

AT, KdTd, KcTd, KcTh, KcTs, 9dTd, 9cTs = 16 + 4 + 2 = 22

not sure why i'm even bothering but there you go. now do you see why raising 33 is horrific. i know, you're a sick slag and i'm an idiot # educatingidiotsforfree
GOONERCAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:39 PM   #89
ymu
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,060
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

I do this with a joker and the rules card. This is not a value bet.

I cannot call with 33. It's a made hand with <8% equity. Turning it into a bluff gives it around 50% equity against the right villain. Against some villains, and on some board textures, this bluff won't work often enough. Against others, on the right boards, it does. I have a different line with the same hand for situations where this doesn't work often enough.

You only ever bet for value or as a bluff. You need to know which is which.
ymu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:41 PM   #90
GOONERCAM
Resident Rollbuster
 
GOONERCAM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Where Pigs Fly
Posts: 7,994
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

fml
GOONERCAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:50 PM   #91
Sc00by
Pooh-Bah
 
Sc00by's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Someday I'll be Saturday night...
Posts: 4,485
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

lmfao, he got CAM to write an essay, first time I have ever seen that.

Best level ever in uNL!
Sc00by is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:50 PM   #92
menintights
stranger
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 14
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOONERCAM View Post
anyway, i did a little work on some of the info you gave earlier, took a standardised open of 21% and fold to 3bet of 33% to give you a 14%ish defense range vs a 3bet, then plugged in all pairs (since you're calling 33 and you're a little deeper) and some other connected type hands (including half the combos of T9o, since it's a hand that a good lag like yourself would show up with, maybe half the time ) and got to a total defense of 17.6% or 234 combos

{ JJ-22, AQs-ATs, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td9h, Td9s, Th9s, Ts9h }]

in the 33 hand

villain is getting pot odds on a flop bet of 5.25 : 2.50, which means he is insta profiting if we fold more than 2.50/(5.25+2.50) = 32% i.e. we have to defend 68% of our range to avoid being exploited

Flop is 2c Qc Jh

Card Removal gives us ;

JJ-22, AQs-ATs, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td9h, Td9s, Th9s, Ts9h 157 (11.84%) 234 (17.65%)

157 combos getting to the flop, and so we need to defend .68*157 = 106 combos

Value Range;

22, JJ, QJ, 9Tcc, 89cc, KTcc, ATcc, K9cc, AJcc, KJcc = 3 + 3 + 9 + 7 = 22 combos

we balance this by finding 22 bluff combos, but it makes more sense to think about combos we want to flat first

106 - 2*22 = 60 combos

AQ, KQ, QT, AJ, KJ, JTcc, J9cc, = 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 2 = 62 combos

a couple more than optimal but not enough to be a big deal

and so to the bluff combos of which we need 20-22

using the open enders makes the most sense, picking the ones with bdfd's makes even more and so we could go for something like this;

AT, KdTd, KcTd, KcTh, KcTs, 9dTd, 9cTs = 16 + 4 + 2 = 22

not sure why i'm even bothering but there you go. now do you see why raising 33 is horrific. i know, you're a sick slag and i'm an idiot # educatingidiotsforfree
Perfect balanced strategy

Code:
I do this with a joker and the rules card.
Dont you think you would have slightly more bluff combo's than gooners perfect balanced strategy?

QED
menintights is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:55 PM   #93
madjimmo
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 76
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

I think this thread should be stickied to show the importance of not out-levelling yourself in the micro-stakes.

I mean, really, if you're so good ymu you should be playing more than one table at higher stakes than 25nl, otherwise you're killing your hourly rate.

And please, can we give relevant advice rather than identifying the villain as a very particular type of player with 50 hands of history followed by what we would do in 10 different situations? It really is unhelpful for anyone who is asking for advice in basic situations like in uNL.

/rant.
madjimmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 12:59 PM   #94
Sc00by
Pooh-Bah
 
Sc00by's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Someday I'll be Saturday night...
Posts: 4,485
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Keep it coming ymu, you have fans!

Do you have time to look at a couple of tough spots I got into today?
Sc00by is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 01:00 PM   #95
Queen6Suited
banned
 
Queen6Suited's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 3,876
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

ymu has it not clicked yet theres a chance every other poster is right and you're wrong?
Queen6Suited is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #96
de_man
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: London
Posts: 1,509
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Ymu is right about several things.

First is that the cbet is just too small. Its a dodgy board & therefore we really wanna know where we're at. For that reason I would be close to potting it and if he raises that we know for certain we're in deep ****. As it is we dont know if we are infact in said **** or if the guy senses weakness & is taking a shot with an inferior hand

Secondly there is just way too many sheep on here not offering anything informative & writing +1 or "everything you said is wrong" without ANY alternative explanation. Seriously WTF WAS THE POINT of you posting, especially when 5 others have done exactly the same.

Not everything ymu said is wrong but even if it was at least he's thinking for himself & not just following others/ playing standard best fold poker
de_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 01:10 PM   #97
ionutd
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ionutd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,409
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

lol 7 pages
ship, don't think I'd have lots of second thoughts as a standard vs this monkey

Last edited by ionutd; 04-11-2012 at 01:16 PM.
ionutd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 01:12 PM   #98
ionutd
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ionutd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,409
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ymu View Post
You're kidding me. That 33 hand is pretty standard TAG.

Whatever TAGfish do here, TAGs raise-call. The key difference is that LAGs raise a higher percent of hands from late position than TAGs - precisely how many depends on the players between them and the button. They call 3bets from the blinds in position with most of their range, especially if the 3betting player resteals from the blinds more than they normally 3bet. A villain with a 9-14% resteal, a high % cbet, and ideally a high fold flop to cbet %, is good for this line. It means they are thinking about our hand, and aren't as strong as they usually would be in a pot this big.

The hands LAGs fold are easily dominated As and broadway. They keep AK/pairs/connectors and maybe some suited As. Depends a bit on villains range for 3betting light and post-flop tendencies. Hands that allow us to hit monsters, and especially to bluff with outs to a monster, are great.

We're not folding to a cbet when he cbets >90% and 100% in 3bet pots. His range is 50/50 air and a lot of better hands fold to a raise. Our hand is entirely irrelevant. We're raising to test out how strong he is, knowing that he will fold often enough for the bluff to show a profit, and that we can fold to a 3bet with no regrets.

TAGS do this less often than LAGs because they raise fewer hands in LP, and because they use their tight image to deploy the odd stealth bluff with a high success rate. LAGs are playing the exact same hands as a TAG, plus about 30-50% more. They win at showdown less often, but they tend to win bigger pots because they use their loose image to get called down lighter when they have a big hand.

I'm not really convinced that there is any value in regarding these two as rigid categories. TAGfish, LAGfish, rockfish and station are good general descriptors for weak players, but those playing actual TAG (not nit) or LAG aren't so very far away from each other. TAGs advertise on the cheap by being more selective with their hands and stealth bluff in good spots, LAGs take out expensive advertising in the hope of bigger returns on those rare occasions where we have what everyone is afraid of on a scary board and are basically playing TAG 70% of the time. You just don't know when they're holding a TAG hand or a LAG hand, so you are forced to guess, which means you make more mistakes.
**** me
ionutd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 01:14 PM   #99
raikkonen3
old hand
 
raikkonen3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,805
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOONERCAM View Post
anyway, i did a little work on some of the info you gave earlier, took a standardised open of 21% and fold to 3bet of 33% to give you a 14%ish defense range vs a 3bet, then plugged in all pairs (since you're calling 33 and you're a little deeper) and some other connected type hands (including half the combos of T9o, since it's a hand that a good lag like yourself would show up with, maybe half the time ) and got to a total defense of 17.6% or 234 combos

{ JJ-22, AQs-ATs, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td9h, Td9s, Th9s, Ts9h }]

in the 33 hand

villain is getting pot odds on a flop bet of 5.25 : 2.50, which means he is insta profiting if we fold more than 2.50/(5.25+2.50) = 32% i.e. we have to defend 68% of our range to avoid being exploited

Flop is 2c Qc Jh

Card Removal gives us ;

JJ-22, AQs-ATs, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td9h, Td9s, Th9s, Ts9h 157 (11.84%) 234 (17.65%)

157 combos getting to the flop, and so we need to defend .68*157 = 106 combos

Value Range;

22, JJ, QJ, 9Tcc, 89cc, KTcc, ATcc, K9cc, AJcc, KJcc = 3 + 3 + 9 + 7 = 22 combos

we balance this by finding 22 bluff combos, but it makes more sense to think about combos we want to flat first

106 - 2*22 = 60 combos

AQ, KQ, QT, AJ, KJ, JTcc, J9cc, = 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 2 = 62 combos

a couple more than optimal but not enough to be a big deal

and so to the bluff combos of which we need 20-22

using the open enders makes the most sense, picking the ones with bdfd's makes even more and so we could go for something like this;

AT, KdTd, KcTd, KcTh, KcTs, 9dTd, 9cTs = 16 + 4 + 2 = 22

not sure why i'm even bothering but there you go. now do you see why raising 33 is horrific. i know, you're a sick slag and i'm an idiot # educatingidiotsforfree
This makes my head hurt, at what level would it be optimal to learn a balanced strategy because I hope I never have to learn how on earth you do this. How is this even possible to think of when multi-tabling?
raikkonen3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 01:35 PM   #100
madjimmo
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 76
Re: NL10 Zoom - KK 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by raikkonen3 View Post
This makes my head hurt, at what level would it be optimal to learn a balanced strategy because I hope I never have to learn how on earth you do this. How is this even possible to think of when multi-tabling?
Not a huge amount at 10nl like here, although the general principle applies it's not the most important thing. And in Zoom like this, just don't bother.
madjimmo is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive