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Old 04-20-2015, 04:21 PM   #1
rastaman1234
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NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

I often find myself in awkward spots in 3bet pots in blinds vs pre flop steals.
How do you play this hand?


BTN: 228.64 BB (VPIP: 29.90, PFR: 17.53, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 100)
Hero (SB): 100 BB
BB: 130.38 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 12.24, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 49)
UTG: 331.74 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
MP: 288.54 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 21.05, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 19)
CO: 102.7 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 19.58, 3Bet Preflop: 5.21, Hands: 247)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A

fold, fold, CO raises to 2.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 8 BB, fold, CO calls 5.5 BB

Flop: (17 BB, 2 players) A T 3
Hero bets 8.12 BB, CO calls 8.12 BB

Turn: (33.24 BB, 2 players) 6
Hero checks, CO bets 20.94 BB, [color=red]
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:05 PM   #2
NaZz68
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

I know how you feel. Bet slightly more otf.
I think I would double barrel turn here. As played I think you need to call.
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:33 PM   #3
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by rastaman1234 View Post
[color=red]
don't shove

if you find it to be an awkward spot then it only takes a few mins with equilab or pokerstove to look at how your range is doing vs his and what you want to do with specific hands

I think that betting twice here is easily the best line with this hand fwiw

Last edited by TWhelan; 04-20-2015 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:38 PM   #4
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

I think you can bet more preflop and on the flop. check call on turn is fine.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:00 PM   #5
rastaman1234
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

I agree with betting turn. Are we calling a shove on the turn?
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:09 PM   #6
Ragequit99
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

You should look into his stats in more detail before 3betting. COsteal% foldvsresteal% 4betvsresteal% This will give you a better idea how wide a range he will show up with if he calls.

If it is a wide capped call 3bet range (e.g. steals 35% call 3bet 50% 4bet 10%) then AQ is in good shape if it hits A or Q and can get 2 or even 3 streets of value postflop.

If he has a wide uncapped call3bet range (steal 35% call 3bet 60% 4bet 0%) then reading his hand will be difficult and sometimes he will hit big with speculative hands or have you crushed with a slow played premium hand but mostly he will miss or have a weak pair or draw. He will feel like he has to call a bet or two if he has Ax hence you can get a couple of streets of value out of him. I would bet 1\2 pot flop and turn and make a decision on river if get to it. If raised at any point I make a decision but erring on side of folding.

If villain has a tight but capped call 3bet range (e.g. Steal 20% call 3bet 20%, 4bet 20%) then you are in a tougher situation in that villain has fewer AX hands he can call you down with and it matters a lot how he plays AK. If he 4bets it usually along with QQ+ then AQ can bet a couple of streets for 1\2pot quite happily. If he routinely flats AK vs a 3bet and 4bets a polarised range (e.g. AA-QQ A9s-A2s) then you are going to get in all sorts of trouble trying to bet AQ for value here since he is calling your 3bet with something like JJ-77 AK AQ AJs ATs KQs QJs JTs he doesn't have much that can call more than one bet and still be behind you. Nevertheless he can miss a lot still so vs this sort of player I would bet the flop bigger like 2\3-3\4 pot and proceed cautiously if called, often checking and calling the turn (to induce villain to bluff or thin value bet with a hand we beat. I may bet again on turn but if he calls then I think AK+ is a bigger part of his range than when we check and he bets.

If he has a tight and uncapped call 3bet range (steal 20%, call 3bet 35%, 4bet 0%) then you are in serious trouble once he calls since his range is something like 77+ AQ AJs ATs KQs QJs JTs. Hence you can add AA to the hands he might have so he misses slightly less frequently.

The tighter he calls the worse shape you're in when he calls but, depending on how often he steals you may be able to bluff 3bet profitably. In this case I should not 3bet AQ, flat it instead and 3bet some weaker Ax as bluffs with blockers. If he folds his steals to more than 70% of resteals this will start to be profitable for 3bets of 3 or 4x his raise. If he is tight and uncapped and doesn't fold >70% of steals to 3bets then he is not stealing enough to require us to defend very wide and I would be inclined to call AQ and not 3bet bluff very often.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:22 PM   #7
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

Whatever you do don't fold.

I think either a checking or betting line is fine with AQ (AJ I'd definitely go check/call, AK I'd bet/bet/jam...in general when I think it's close I opt for a checking line), but make no mistake, we are stacking off here, unless maybe a J falls OTR.
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Old 04-21-2015, 04:17 AM   #8
Ragequit99
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
Whatever you do don't fold.
I agree with this when you only have 250 hands since you won't have enough info to make an accurate enough read to warrant a fold. However if you do have reliable stats covering his response to re-steals I think there are spots you would fold to a raise which depend on his range for calling the flop 3bet and how often he continues vs a c-bet in 3bet pots - if both are pretty tight then I think a raise is AK+ quite often.

Vs a relative unknown who doesn't look nitty I would not be looking to make any folds at any point like grinder4all says.
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Old 04-21-2015, 04:35 AM   #9
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

I'd consider checking flop vs some. Xc turn seems fine and so does dbarreling. Going to be awkward on rivers usually anyway.
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:01 AM   #10
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

Good point meale. Could we consider this a way-ahead-way-behind situation? Because of lower stack to pot ratio in 3bet pots I tend to be less likely to play wawb as passively as I might in a raised pot but I couldn't actually put any logic behind that. I know a lot of players don't have much of an active checking range and consequently a similarly large number of players will stab at the pot following any check.

Therefore I think we should aim our flop checks at opponents who are aggro postflop and bet vs missed cbets frequently. By letting these aggro players take the lead in the betting we keep them playing a wider range against which we have better equity.

Against passive postflop opponents who raise rarely in 3bet pots we are happier double barreling since we can more happily fold to a raise if the range we put them on is strong enough - whereas A more aggro player could raise us with wide enough ranges that we just can never fold.

River is difficult but I think we help ourselves by opponent specific planning from the flop (and preflop too!).

If we think opponent is loose enough to call off his stack with worse or aggro enough to raise us later with a range we have to call against then we should either bet out bigger (2/3 pot to 3/4 pot flop/turn/river) or put in a check somewhere along the line to let him bluff. We stack off if our bet is raised or we get shoved on after checking. Vs unknown I default to this strategy.

If opponent is tight enough with his call 3bet preflop and his postflop play to have few hands we can get value from we should bet flop, turn and river on the smaller side (1/2 pot f&t 1/3 pot river or c/c river). The smaller bets force him to raise if he wants to get stacks in and we assume vs these tighter opponents their raising range is AK+ Therefore we don't stack off here.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:02 AM   #11
rastaman1234
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

Thanks for all replies. Some good stuff there.

I ended up check-shoving turn, like TWhelan pointed out. My reasoning for shoving was that I didn't want to X/fold when I'm so high up in my range. I didn't want to x/call either because then river would be super awkward.

Betting is probably the best option as some of you have pointed out. If we barrel the turn, are we ready to go broke on the river if it bricks? Or can we X/fold river? I mean if Villain calls two barrels on this board and bets river I really don't see what we beat.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:49 AM   #12
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

The thing, you'd expect him to 3bet AK from those positions, so you only lose to slowplayed AA, 2 pairs and sets. So you can't really fold here.
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:11 PM   #13
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

I don't think you want to check fold the river without an astonishing read. If you are afraid you're opponent has AK in his call-3bet range then betting around 1/2 pot on flop and turn and 1/3 on river (assuming no J or heart falls on river) will help you get value sometimes and lose least possible when behind.

Flop pot is 17bb, c-bet = 9bb V calls pot=35, effective stacks =92-9=83bb.

Turn pot is 35bb, bet is 17bb, pot becomes 69bb, stacks=66bb

If you bet 1/3 pot on river, 23bb you have 43bb left behind. Hypothetically, vs a tight player you believe will only raise with AK+ you can fold to a raise and save nearly half your stack.

Maybe this line allows villain to call with a weaker ace, maybe he calls down with AK and you lose minimum. Maybe he spazz calls with a pair lower than ace. Maybe he reads your bets as blocking bets and raises as a bluff but I think he makes this move on turn when he has greater fold equity and can feasibly have some kind of draw to semibluff with. However, if you balance this small bet triple barrel line by doing same with TPTK+ then sometimes your small bets are blocking, sometimes they are suck bets (inducing a raise). That will slow him down bluff raising you.
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:48 PM   #14
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

Sorry, just to be clear: Don't always triple barrel small with TPTK+, just often enough to catch him out when he raises you such that he can't add too many bluffs into his turn or river raising ranges. You want to b bet, bet, shove with TPTK+ more frequently than you 1\2, 1\2, 1/3 pot it.
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:55 PM   #15
rastaman1234
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
The thing, you'd expect him to 3bet AK from those positions, so you only lose to slowplayed AA, 2 pairs and sets. So you can't really fold here.
You mean 4bet? I 3bet in the blinds he called OTB. Yes, those are the only hands that beat us. So I guess betting turn to extract value from weaker aces is the best option.

The only problem is that I don't think that he will have many weaker aces here.
Or is it normal to call pre here with Axs?
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:59 PM   #16
rastaman1234
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
I don't think you want to check fold the river without an astonishing read. If you are afraid you're opponent has AK in his call-3bet range then betting around 1/2 pot on flop and turn and 1/3 on river (assuming no J or heart falls on river) will help you get value sometimes and lose least possible when behind.

Flop pot is 17bb, c-bet = 9bb V calls pot=35, effective stacks =92-9=83bb.

Turn pot is 35bb, bet is 17bb, pot becomes 69bb, stacks=66bb

If you bet 1/3 pot on river, 23bb you have 43bb left behind. Hypothetically, vs a tight player you believe will only raise with AK+ you can fold to a raise and save nearly half your stack.

Maybe this line allows villain to call with a weaker ace, maybe he calls down with AK and you lose minimum. Maybe he spazz calls with a pair lower than ace. Maybe he reads your bets as blocking bets and raises as a bluff but I think he makes this move on turn when he has greater fold equity and can feasibly have some kind of draw to semibluff with. However, if you balance this small bet triple barrel line by doing same with TPTK+ then sometimes your small bets are blocking, sometimes they are suck bets (inducing a raise). That will slow him down bluff raising you.
Yes maybe it's a good line to barrel small in this spot. I'm not really afraid of AK, but rather sets and Ax two pairs.
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Old 04-21-2015, 03:27 PM   #17
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

From what I've seen there is not one standard reg line for each spot. Regs are all different. Some regs will flat AK in this spot sometimes.

Something I do myself is split AK in two:

AKo-2-colours for 8 combos (0.6%)
AKo-1-colour + AKs for 8 combos (0.6%)

Then, in CO here I might:

Value 4-bet: QQ+ AKo-2-colours (1.95%)
Bluff 4-bet: A9s-A2s (2.4%)
Call 3bet: JJ-77 (2.25%) AKo-1-colour AKs (0.6%) AQ (1.2%) AJs ATs KQs KJs QJs QTs JTs T9s 98s (2.7%) (Total call: 5.75%)

This is a total defence vs 3bet of 10.1% of all starting hands so if I open 22.5% from CO that's a defence vs 3bet of 45% of my open range.

I'll mix it up more by occasionally flatting AA-QQ and A9s-A2s rather than 4bet them.

So this way you have to worry that AA-QQ and AK appear in both my call-3bet range and my 4bet range. Yes A9s-A2s can be in my calling range but mostly they'll be in my 4-betting range. When you start betting AQ against my flatting range here you'll get calls from: sets (inc. a rare AA) AQ+ ATs+ rareA9s-A2s. I'll also call with pairs under aces, draws and back-door draws as floats. I'd play all my hands slowly until the flush draw appears on turn and then I'd shove quite wide if you check and shove tighter if you bet. In both cases of shoving I'll be somewhat balanced between AX, sets, random Axs-2-pairs and draws.
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:27 PM   #18
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by rastaman1234 View Post
You mean 4bet? I 3bet in the blinds he called OTB. Yes, those are the only hands that beat us. So I guess betting turn to extract value from weaker aces is the best option.

The only problem is that I don't think that he will have many weaker aces here.
Or is it normal to call pre here with Axs?
Yeah I meant 4bet.

Flatting ATs-AQs and A2s-A5s would be 'standard' as far as I'm concerned, yes. Can probably ditch/4bet bluff the middling aces (i.e. A6s-A9s) but those would be a standard call OTB. Having flatted these hands pre, they all need to be calling 2 streets...he can fold some of them to a triple barrel and it's likely a bet/bet/jam doesn't get called by a ton worse...he probably has to call AJ, but if he calls AJ he obviously calls AT and A3 too, although more combos of AJ since he will have the unsuited combos too. But when you add in sets too I think checking is best to keep his range wide...not with the intention of ever folding though.

Remember when you check turn like this, he should be betting with gutshots like KQ, KJ, QJ, the suited combos of which are a call pre (and unsuited KQ should be a call too) but folding them to a double barrel. And these are the sort of hands he'll want to triple barrel bluff if you call turn because of blockers (i.e. KQ blocks AK and AQ which is in your calling range). A bet/bet/jam lines ensures you're never up against bluffs at the end.
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:33 AM   #19
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

bet again and shove on any non heart QJ river imO

ap easy snap call
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Old 04-22-2015, 04:59 AM   #20
rastaman1234
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
Remember when you check turn like this, he should be betting with gutshots like KQ, KJ, QJ, the suited combos of which are a call pre (and unsuited KQ should be a call too) but folding them to a double barrel. And these are the sort of hands he'll want to triple barrel bluff if you call turn because of blockers (i.e. KQ blocks AK and AQ which is in your calling range). A bet/bet/jam lines ensures you're never up against bluffs at the end.
Yes I thought so too. So I check-raised to induce bets from those hands, but it was probably a bad line as stated earlier in the thread.
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Old 04-22-2015, 09:18 AM   #21
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

Re-reading the thread I think most lines are acceptable with exception of shoving the flop or turn (isolates you against stronger hands) or folding anywhere (unless vs v tight player shoving any street or possibly a normal TAG shoving a heart or J river). Checking flop or turn to induce better vs aggro players while double/triple barrelling vs passive players is probably better. River is always going to be pain - just don't fold without v good read from decent number of hands though I don't know what that would be and seem to get it wrong regularly based off of <1000 hands.

Anyone know how many hands you'd need to put much faith in a villain's fold to resteal/4bet vs resteal/call resteal stats?

If you see villain flat KK+ AK vs 3bet what adjustment would you make pre and post flop?
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:06 PM   #22
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Re: NL 50z AQ on A high board in 3bet pot

c/r turn doesn't make too much sense, just c/c down if you start checking
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