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NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby

04-09-2008 , 07:20 PM
it's 100% not
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGRider
can someone explain to me why he would 3 bet tx oop and why this is part of his range

Brian Townsend has c/r similar strength type hands in videos, although that was sb vs btn 3-handed limped iirc.

c/r obviously makes the person doing it harder to play against, having a more merged c/r range. He might get you off a worse T, he usually gets you off gutshots+overs, which will double barrel a lot and puts the guessing game on his side.
People cbet a high percentage, and will have a hard time continuing on this board except a small range.

That's what I can think off right now..
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 07:35 PM
I dont think any king is folding given how this was played preflop, QJ isnt folding deep, and he didnt double barrel. I dont get it.
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 07:59 PM
would you try to fold out an unknown's Kx here? me neither. i don't think this is a bluff.
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 08:09 PM
the fact that we are 150 bb's deep changed this hand for me. I figured I'd rather put in 20 bb's in now with what figures to be the best hand against a good player where we have very little history and he is seemingly playing me pretty straightforwardly, than turn my hand faceup (i almost always have Tx or Kx if I flat call) and allow him to bet any turn and pretty much make my life hell. after all aejones, people play straightforward in 3 way pots on the flop, he's gotta cbet very wide range there, right?

OP is a good LAG, but we have very little history and the only thing I know is: 1) he's playing a lot of tables and playing well and 2) he probably knows I'm playing a lot of tables and playing fairly tight.

It doesn't make a lot of sense for him to do anything but call with hands like AK, AA, TT, KT, etc, given our history (If I did have Kx, I'm not sticking in 150 bb's here with it, he should know that). He could mini raise and hope i do something dumb with a draw, but in this case, if he's getting more money out of me, it's because I'm bluffing or because there is a cooler hand that will get the money anyway.

So, I'm not too worried about him shoving me off the hand with a random bluff or draw, except maybe occasionally with JQ, however, I am worried about him bluffing just about any turn if I just flat call.

The plan was to c/r for value and to see where I stand against a player that doesn't figure to have better more than 20-25% of the time, and shut down/evaluate turn and river. Bonus points for the times he folds JJ-QQ (maybe never) or calls one street with 77-99).

River was great so I bet and got called. I'm not bluffing that river too often, if ever. Not sure if I blame a call there, though.

tc
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 08:18 PM
my bad i had AT, i'm assuming it was suited but i dont remember what suits

tc
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 08:21 PM
so you prefer turning your hand into a bluff here and preventing him from bluffing? Is this just something you do when you are playing a bit deeper or is this a normal play? If a player is aggro, isn't it better to call him and let him to continue bluffing instead of preventing him from doing so?
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 08:32 PM
i dont think id ever do this 100 bb's deep, or with history i have with most people i've played substantial amts of hands with. if the player is aggro, he's probably bluffing the turn quite a bit and it's going to make it really hard on me. it's not going to be easy (or likely profitable) to make a habit of calling down 3 streets with AT here.

the overriding factor here is that i didn't expect most of his made hands to 4bet here. this could be up for debate, but logic tells me that if he wants to get paid, he's going to have to hope i'm bluffing (or hold exactly JQ and shove if he mini raises). this is also a situation where i expect him to cbet at least 80% of his range, which considering he is playing 28/24, my hand is good a very large amount of the time.

tc

also, i am technically "turning my hand into a bluff," but i'm not thinking about it like that. I guess it's sort of like a blocking c/r, if that makes sense. if we are 100 bb's deep i'm not all that concerned about getting outplayed, sure, he's going to play a little better than me having a good idea what my range is, but i'm hopeful that I can adjust to that knowing what he knows etc. but as we get super deep, i don't mind "paying" to make the rest of the hand easier to play, given that he's not likely to shove draws and 1 pair hands (or even KKK or TTT, for that matter). i dont know if what im saying makes sense, sorry if it doesnt.

Last edited by Green Plastic; 04-09-2008 at 08:39 PM. Reason: more infos
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 08:37 PM
whoops bad read by me.

So basically you had no bluff catching range and were bluff raising this flop w/ almost your entire range?

Not a fan of it but it's obv fine if you feel you are going to get outplayed on later streets.
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 08:47 PM
Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks a lot. Are you basically just hoping that you can take down the pot now? After he calls, you are just hoping to check it down, correct? Thanks again. Also, do you do any coaching? Willing to take on another student?
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 08:48 PM
no, i'm raising the flop maybe 20% of the time i have nothing, 80% of the time I have a lot, and 50% of the time I have something mediocre. this is in this given hand, given opponent, given board.

tc

(to craigs post)
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 08:56 PM
Why not adjust your frequencies so that you include more of your nothing hands into you bluff raising range and widen your bluff catching range? You said you thought he was cbetting with a wide range so obv a flop call would show a profit.

I'm sure you know this but doing that would allow you to continue with more of your range and is more profitable IMO unless you really do think you will get outplayed on later streets which I'm never willing to concede to someone I have no history with.
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1120
Why not adjust your frequencies so that you include more of your nothing hands into you bluff raising range and widen your bluff catching range? You said you thought he was cbetting with a wide range so obv a flop call would show a profit.

I'm sure you know this but doing that would allow you to continue with more of your range and is more profitable IMO unless you really do think you will get outplayed on later streets which I'm never willing to concede to someone I have no history with.
it doesnt if i double air with any frequency. (assuming he folds to the double i suppsoe, but then i fi double for value it becomes unprofitable again.)

I think i am unlikely to get that out of line deep, but i can see why a c/r here is solid.

Anyone like a turn bet on my part?
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 09:12 PM
No turn check is a must.
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 09:14 PM
this is what raptor was talking about in his card runners video. I think what he was trying to say was that w/ a mediocre hand you have some value in the hand but being oop it is hard to defend that equity and realize it at showdown since you get bluffed off the best hand as well as getting valuetowned. therefore a c/r more effectively protects your equity from oop.

that said, I have a couple of questions for taylor. i know you said you don't expect a 3bet almost ever but if you did face one was your plan to fold despite the flop being so dry? I've been thinking a lot about how to play super dry boards so it was nice to see this type of hand, involving a v good player, posted. also r u ever making this type of flop raise in position?
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGRider
it doesnt if i double air with any frequency. (assuming he folds to the double i suppsoe, but then i fi double for value it becomes unprofitable again.)

I think i am unlikely to get that out of line deep, but i can see why a c/r here is solid.

Anyone like a turn bet on my part?
I don't like a turn bet here against anyone competent. But I will do it against a ton of people who will just call and check the river with hands that they may have been more active with had I checked back. (i.e. lead river)
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 09:16 PM
I assume you're betting really small Scansion?
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGRider
it doesnt if i double air with any frequency. (assuming he folds to the double i suppsoe, but then i fi double for value it becomes unprofitable again.)
If you double barrel w/ a range unbalanced toward air and I call I gain. If you double barrel w/ a range that is unbalanced toward value and I call I lose.

Basically I am guessing how often you will be bluffing when you bet and you are guessing how often I will be folding when deciding whether to bluff or not.

By avoiding these situations w/ bluff catchers you are basically saying that villain is better at guessing what you're going to do then you are at what he's going to do. And like I said before I'm not willing to concede this to someone I have no history with. Just because it is an uncomfortable situation doesn't mean it should be avoided IMO.


Until I get convinced otherwise, the only reason I would make that play would be to reduce variance.
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 09:48 PM
yessss everyone is gonna start CR middle pair now lol
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 10:18 PM
taylor i like ur line and i like ur explanation but i think i like it a little better with JT

-Mike
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 10:21 PM
also i think ppl are highly underestimating the fact that a cr folds out j9 and q9 on the flop (maybe aj/aq which is obv even better)

-Mike
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
yessss everyone is gonna start CR middle pair now lol
I made a lot of money off el d's post "cr every a hi flop against the pfr"
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-09-2008 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArturiusX
I made a lot of money off el d's post "cr every a hi flop against the pfr"
link?
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-10-2008 , 01:23 AM
Called it.
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote
04-10-2008 , 02:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Requin
w/o history fold river, no way in hell he's bluffing an unknown without a read there
1
NL 1000 - KQ (150bb deep) vs Taylor Caby Quote

      
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