ya what he said

i like your line tay

funny b/c whitelime and i had a long discussion with strasser at dinner the other day about this exact kind of play

my standard line is to c/c, but i will lead (which nobody does) and c/r a small % of the time to scramble my eggs

with no history i d fold river

Ok can someone please explain to me why on the river, the fact that his line makes no sense and thus should be a fold because he is good, trumps the fact that no hands make sense here.

Maybe c/r with mp isnt as bad as i think (I would probably c/c virtually always with mptk here), but it certainly is very difficult to have Tx in his range. I dont understand any hand he could have on the river, but why should the fact this is a bad river to bluff make me fold? I was always told if it doesnt make sense a lot of times it doesnt because they dont have it.

imo i would fold river only vs certain players. Those players are half competant and view me the same.
in this case TC knows you to be competant, knows his line doesnt make sense, but still bets, he knows u know that his line doesnt make sense and will uslly call with Kx. Given that i know he knows i am competant and will look at this line and say wtf doesnt make sense i would expect he wants me to call so i would lean towards a fold.

i hope im not too off the mark on this one again...

Check raise is a great play here most of the time, you called and he now knows exactly where he stands. If you were just c-betting you would have folded. So he doesn't have to win this every time to be profitable. If this works 60% of the time on the flop, this is almost even but when you check it to the river his profits only go up from there. When the A or 10 hits his profits soar.

The part of this hand that makes me sick is the turn check, that is the error in this hand, not the c/r or the river bet.

Now the river call is a whole other mistake.

The big error is no turn bet, you let him get there. He earned the pot.

I think we can at least all agree that noteye has no clue.

so you saying the OP played the hand correct?

you bet the flop then just followed like a little scared donk, then called off his stack on the river.

You are the clueless one who would have played it that way not me.

What hand are you putting him on? You have no clue at all. All you know is that you were out played as the OP was.

this isn't true though, as TC was not calling a flop 3bet, and didn't discuss what he'd do vs a turn bet. I'm assuming he'd fold to a turn bet, which means his line is very exploitable vs someone who would float his checkraise. It's likely that he will get floated off his hand.
it's not even that important at higher stakes though, as well. i agree that these things may add SOME value, but overall, not much. not enough to change the standard play here anyway

this is true

it's worth noting for the results oriented crowd (which is everyone) that TC got lucky that he hit his 2 outer. if he c/c two streets, the ~same amount of money goes in postflop and both times hero gets to see both cards. however, if he doesn't hit a 2outer, in the c/r hand vs the c/c possibility, we have the same pot size for the most part and are in the same situation, except villain will have weaker hands less often, so we're less inclined towards showing our hand down when we c/r early vs more inclined when we've c/c x2

so MOST of the time c/c is > c/r.

thats the gist of it.

c/r some rare % of the time here in tc's case isn't "wrong". as a default tho, it is

I dont think anyone is flaming you for calling the river. In isolation villain hit a 2 outer which you had to pay off, since you probably could put him on QJ and fold on an ace river (if tc bets an ace river, which is not guaranteed) That happens.

If he put him on QJ then he should have bet the turn, so he could not have put him on that. when he didn't bet the turn he put him on K10, 10 5, or a set of 5's or 10's. All those hands still beat him on the river so why call? He didn't improve his hand so if that was his read he should have folded.

You are the only person who has advocated betting the turn (from Tabys perspective with AT). Think about that.

the reason is because you don't put an opponent on one hand. You put him on a range of hands. On the river Hero felt enough of that range was hands KQ was ahead of, and given pot odds, he felt it was a call.

Pretty sure that

A) My line isnt unreasonable

B) This is one of the two cards im paying off

C) If i took TC's line i dont think i would have anyone arguing for my side.

by cr mid pair here on such a dry board and this is the exact kinda flop people play back at, i think your inducing a bunch of floats and bluffs, and will make the hand harder to play in my opinion, so i wouldn't recommend this play if your not comfortable with your hand reading abilitys

When he checked the turn, I would have taken a second and re thought the hand. If he had 2 pair or a set he would have bet out to prevent the straight draw or him catching a better 2 pair. So that is where I would have felt he was making a move at the pot.

I do not think he would have called on the turn if he bet after he check. He called his raise on the flop then bet again after the check, he would have know for sure he had a king and lay down the A10.

I def like checking behind turn, if the river is a brick i am pretty sure taylor is calling a value bet with is a10

He should have made this adjustment after the check, that is all I am saying, not after the river card and river bet. If the river was a rag then I would have called but it paired the board. If TC didn't have the 10 he might have felt you did by the check on the turn so there is no way he would have bet it. If you he put you on a draw his bet would have been much smaller so the only hand he has you on is Kx and knew there was a good chance that bet would be called.

That is also a gamble you can take, it would pay off good. But when the 10 does come do not call it for 1/3 of your stack, that was the big mistake.

its such a way ahead way behind spot, and its such a nasty spot if u get check raised again on the turn. I just dont see many advantages on betting the turn besides tryng to induce a bluff which i can't see taylor doing here. I think a 10 here is a very small part of is range i think he raises here more often with a hand like aj, jq, and monsters. If your ahead hes drawing to like 8 outs at most so i don't mind letting him peel one here.

Why would you want to let him draw to those hands? That is what I am saying, if you bet the turn you would be up right now, not down. If he check/raised me again then I would know that he has a monster but by letting him just check to the river we have lost our feel for the hand. So that semi bluff just became a real hand by him

your going to bet fold turn? that is so bad on so many levels. You shouldnt worry about letting your opponent get there you should worry about taking the most +ev line

For most people, that isn't a bad way to think. However, you can't really think like this against one of the best players in the world. The thing is that he knows his line doesn't make a ton of sense and he is probably going to get looked up light, so he probably isn't bluffing here. If he was planning on bluffing here, he would have continued betting on the turn.

i think what most people are failing to see, and OP even said himself, is that he isn't 3betting (bluffing or for value) just about anything on the flop, given the table dynamic and our history (and i agree with that, i dont think he should).

for similar reasons, OP is extremely unlikely to float in this sitaution, which means if he calls me, i know exactly where i stand. i'm folding if he bets the turn or river.

obviously, after analyzing this hand in front of lots of people (and OP), given I'm in this exact same situation with OP again, i'm unlikely to play it that way. this is also an example of a play where you don't think about the long run (meaning, i'm going to change the way I play these types of hands if OP figures out that i play medium strength hands like this. when that happens, i just stop doing it as much, so we don't worry about playing exploitably, because OP doesn't know that i woudl play a hand in this fashion -- if you don't understand this point, read back to the beginning of the thread where everyone said "OBV call, he never has a T" well, i did have a Ten, but I probably won't in the future, so good luck exploiting me). i cant remember who i was talking about that with, i think whitelime or krantz, but it's something you don't see at MSNL because it's more playing the game rather than each individual player. aislephive and bobbo, does this make sense?

tc