It's very hard to exploit decent thinking opponents OOP, if we think we can do that every time profitably then either the villain is a huge fish or we're really under estimating the importance of position .

OOP I think that having a polarized 4 betting range with the appropriate balance between value/bluffs is the optimal way to combat light 3 bettors.

There could be exceptions where villain is a complete imbecile/maniac so his positional advantage is irrelevant.

But, if the 3 betting villain is in anyway competent, I find it hard to accept that our default strategy to combat his 3 betting should be to regularly give him the positional advantage in bloated pots where he has the initiative and then try to outplay/exploit him post flop.

Im not saying we should be calling regularly but this would a spot that I would once I knew how I could exploit villain post flop.

The reason this is a spot to call is because folding is insane but we cant 4bet because we know he is likely to call. How effective is a polarized 4betting strategy going to be against a villian who's most likely response is to call our 4bet IP?

How effective s a a value heavy 4bettting strategy going to be if we are going to be playing fit or fold post flop once he calls IP? great when we have AA or KK/QQ (except on A/K high flops etc) but pretty useless otherwise. All that you achieved is get into the same scenario that flatting the 3bet got you into except now the pots bigger and you have less (if any) room to manaouvre.

so that leaves the 3rd option of calling and do this we need to be able to play back at this guy somehow (sometimes, not every time) post flop and exploit whatever weakness our time at the table with him has identified.

other than that you have to ask yourself why you are even sitting in that seat at that particular table?

If you have that level of detail on the villain then that's great. All I knew at the time is that he was very suspicious and very aggressive, this was based on about 10-15 minutes of play.

It can take a long time to build up a picture of his specific weaknesses, particularly while multi-tabling and in the meantime we need a default strategy to fall back on.

If it's appropriately balanced then I think it can be very effective.

Because there was a huge whale sat on my right and I'll be damned if I'm going to be chased away from a profitable spot just because the guy on my left is taking liberties.

Ok the impression I got from your OP was not of just 10/15 mins worth of play. It appeared like much more.

I would fold then until I can get understanding of how villian plays but that shouldnt take more than a few orbits. well in personally I would call to use this hand as an opportunity to gain some insight into his tendancies. but as you dont like playing 3bet pots OOP you should fold because based on your observations of him so far you cant 4bet him either.


If we think he is going to call our 4bets then how is 4betting anything other than QQ+ going to effective if we are also plannng to play fit or fold post flop?

eg. we 4bet AK, flop is 892r you are OOP, what do you do know? then tell me how this is different from when you flatted KQs to a 3bet and got the same flop (granted now we have initiative but we still need to know how to proceed against each particular villin and why)

Hero opens 3bb, villain 3-bets 9bb, hero 4-bets 22bb
How is this a min 4bet?

I don't understand what this is saying (grammar wise) I think you're advocating a call pre like Cam which I agree with.

+1

I think we have a pretty easy decision based on the information provided to us (and it's a pretty easy C/F iyam)

This pretty much

1) Don't show results
2) You're using the information provided to you incorrectly

First off, you know he's aggressive bvb.
You know this because he called a 4b bvb with TT. What does this tell you? It tells you he 3b/called TT which means he's probably got a depolarized range for 3-betting, and also hates to fold to 4bets.

This should tip you off to call 3bets vs this player with a hand like KQ/AJ/AQ, 4b all your premiums, and pretty much fold the rest. This is to let him barrel off your cards / value-town himself in 3-bet pots, while you anally rape him in all 4bet pots (which will exist because he doesn't fold)

As for the hand as played, he's not being paranoid, he's playing exactly as you described him. He's an aggressive player that plays back bvb, who flopped TP in a 4bet pot. Do you expect him to think before calling a c/jam?

I'd also like to add that you're being paranoid about losing when you have the best hand (for instance in a situation where you happened to call with KQs rather than 4b and the flop came 269r and he c-bets KJ).

You're focusing on the times this happens and you lose 9bb while neglecting the times you hit and you generally win 25+bb (not to mention this usually happens to be a stack)

I swear to god if you mention that f*cking article one more time I'm going to lose it.

To all those spending their time replying here, just wanted to say, i appreciate reading these insights, even if OP doesn't

I can pretty much guarantee you don't understand either of the 2 approaches being put forward with respect to dealing with 3 bets.

6th post and you're already trolling? Good start, keep it up!

When people who have a clue disagree with me about strategy, it's great. I might not be persuaded, but it's always interesting to see how people view the same situation.

However, it's imbeciles and trolls like these 2 guys that really spoil decent threads. Even if they happen to agree with you, you really shouldn't encourage them.

Please... turn off the ego before turning on the PC. We're all meant to be 18+ if we're playing internet poker. ;-)

link to fredd?

It's a book, not a thread.

scan it

I don't think Ed Miller would be very happy with that.

why are you posting here, when you can read Ed Miller and be a losing player?

are 3 year old books accurate for the current games?

So if someone were to follow Ed Millers and Sunny Mehtas advice about dealing with 3 bets that would make them a losing player.

But if they were to follow your advice about dealing with 3 bets that would make them a winning player?

Sorry, but I'm going to find it hard to take your comments seriously now.

I think a book aimed at 200nl 3 years ago is definitely fine for the micro stakes today. Maybe calm down on the amount of stealing they recommend seeing as people call more at micros, but yeah in general I think there's a lot of really good advice that is always going to be applicable.

[QUOTE=disinformation;31194938]So if someone were to follow Ed Millers and Sunny Mehtas advice about dealing with 3 bets that would make them a losing player.

But if they were to follow your advice about dealing with 3 bets that would make them a winning player?

Sorry, but I'm going to find it hard to take your comments seriously now.
QUOTE]

if you want to get in touch with Ed Miller and Sunny Mehtas i'd be happy to play them

yet again though, you fail to get the point.

you open JJ and are 3bet by a guy who plays 8/7/1.5
you open JJ and are 3bet by a guy who plays 34/30/12

'YES BUT ED AND SUNNY SAY FOLD JJ TO A 3BET BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE'

you open KQs bvb and are 3bet by a guy who plays 8/7/1.5
you open KQs bvb are 3bet by an aggro guy who 3bet bluffs too much with x/y/z stats to confirm this

'YES BUT ED AND SUNNY SAY FOLD BECAUSE CALLING 3BETS OOP TO PLAY FIT OR FOLD IS BAD'

oh wait, we haven't even considered things such as stacksize, dynamic, barrelling tendencies, overall gameplan, postflop playability, hand vs range equity, range vs range equity,

AND YOU KNOW WHY

COS IT DOESN'T MATTER. COS ED AND SUNNY SAID SO

You are now raving.

Please... get a grip on yourself. It's just the internet ffs.

The variables you mention are discussed in great detail in the book and they do not at any point say auto fold JJ when 3 bet.

If you think that's what I've been saying, then you've not been reading my posts properly.

Ultimately, the problem here is that you do not know anything about the strategy you're criticising and you cannot handle disagreement without blowing up.

Those two things do not make for a meaningful discussion.

We're done here.

While i don't like playing 3bet pots OOP KQs is one of the most playable hands postflop so i don't like your 4bet, would rather do it with Kx or Ax.

Oh yeah and perfect 4bet sizing

BTW ppl are trying to help you!

Calm down Cam.
You make it sound like Ed Miller / Sunny Mehta are some ****** fish.

Tangent:

@UKGrinderUK
just out of curiosity could you post your results when u 4 bet this kind of hands pre?

@OP
i think u have a valid point and i think 4-bet is +EV, however i think calling 3bet is also +EV and also less variance so i think the better play is calling pre (vs. this V ofc).

i must admit though i would very likely auto 4bet pre too...

(4bt all hands ex QQ+,AK)

SBvBB

25 instances, losing 891 BB/100

BU v Blinds


26 Instances losing 83.96 BB/100

Pretty interesting, although its such a small sample I could of just run into the very tops of peoples ranges alot. Shame I dont have the the 2mill+ hands accessible.

Lol if you think I was raving, I was just trying to get some sort of old school stone cold Steve Austin argument going. I've never read the book, I will give you that, and from the sounds of it I'm not missing out or you're doing a great injustice to their work

pretty easy flat, 4betting is meh.
nothing wrong with flatting 3bets oop these days, and this is coming from someone who didnt have a calling range to 3bets oop a few years ago