This is definitely a boring hand but just wanted a check up on this. The villain is 22/16/4.7. I was just wondering if the turn call was spew or standard.

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $73.50
Hero (BTN): $87.30
SB: $14.95
BB: $42.15
UTG: $59.40
MP: $67.25

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with K K
1 fold, MP raises to $1.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, 2 folds, MP calls $4.25

Flop: ($12.75) 4 A 3 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($12.75) 2 (2 players)
MP bets $9, Hero calls $9

River: ($30.75) T (2 players)
MP bets $22.50, Hero folds

Why didnt you bet the flop?

Bet/fold flop, as played, turn and river are fine.

I understand why you checked the flop (worse hands are unlikely to call), but since your hand isn't one you want to take much heat with and Villain is very aggressive, I'm thinking betting the flop in an effort to get the hand over with is probably the way to go.

I think your turn/river line is all right, but the problem is that, given Villain's stats, there's always going to be the legitimate fear that he two-barreled the big streets following your defensive flop check. And it's possible he would float you on the flop anyway, I know (with a worse PP, for instance, or the unlikely but possible flush draw), that does seem like the lesser danger to me here.

the $9 you invested after the flop would have served you better if you bet the flop instead of calling a bet on the turn. b/f flop, c/f all streets after

I like it tbh.

By checking flop we get action from weeker hands on later streets. 99, TT, JJ, QQ.

If he leads turn I'm probably calling and I'm also folding to river bet.

Hero's line is in fact a very good one if we can count on Villain to stab with worse hands once on the later streets and then give up.

That 4.7 AF makes me wonder how much we can count on this, though. I don't wonder about the stab so much, although there's no guarantee it will come, but I do wonder about the "give up" part.

rotfl. bet flop...

rotfl

checking flop is ok, Heros line was standard.

I thought about the same thing as well on the river, but decided a hero call was just spew. The reason I didn't bet the flop is that when I'm in the villain's position with AK / AA I like to take a line of check, (hope the IP raiser bets) and then, CRAI. Who knows this line might be crap but it's what i like to do, and I see many other people use this line. Anyhow, thinking this was the line that the OOP villain might be taking I checked behind and figured I would call once on the turn, and reevaluate the river.

i dont get how you can represent a-k, a-q with this line.
against any competent player this isnt a good line and moving up stackes this can be one of the worst lines.
generally i would avoid learning lines which change radically from one stack to another.
people arent going to lookin you up light, id rather double barrel then call down.

Jesus Christ. lol. Bet flop looolzzzzz. Turn your KK into a bluff OP! Jesus...how is villain supposed to believe you have AK if you don't?? loooollllz. I am so good at poker that I'm going to laugh at OP's flop check! Hahahahaa.



Seriously, this thread is horrible ****ing brain-rot.

Well played OP. If we want to get to the point at 50NL that we are assuming villain is reading our flop check as "no A", and is then proceeding to db us with JJ by potting twice in a 3b pot, then that's fine. We might as well assume he knows what we had for breakfast. Maybe he's a poker genius.

Either that or he has an A and is hoping some moron with KK will cb without knowing why he's doing it. I'm not saying a flop bet is always wrong - nothing in poker is always wrong - but I am saying that harrumphing at OP for his line without knowing why you are doing it blows very hard.

QFT

i either bet the flop or call the river vs. a guy that's 22/16/4.7, because once we check back the flop its pretty obv what we have.

Meh - I think you should only check if you would sometimes check top pair on this board. Otherwise bet.

That said, I hate betting this flop and getting called because we dont gain much on villians holding from his call (Dimaonds, random straight draws, random pairs, Aces??????). So I think I check back a fair bit.

Im guessing you were thinking something like "I can call turn, but my hand cannot beat a second barrell", so you fold river.

Thing is, logically speaking, if your turn call was good then you should call river, and if oyu are folding ruver you should fold turn. And I guess at a stretch if you call turn and he checks river you should VB, but thats at a stretch.

I never said I was trying to rep AK/AQ. I think what you misinterpreted was that I said in the villain's position I'll check AK/AQ quite often hoping the button bets so that I can CRAI. Now, there is a good possibility you still think that sucks.

Yea agreed. I think checking behind on this flop is very standard against an unknown or someone who isn't overly aggro. However, this guy seems capable of firing twice with a wide range so either bet the flop and give up or call down. I think calling turn and folding river is pretty bad though against this opponent.

Profish, are you saying that this guy is capable of doing this with <KK? And if so, with what frequency?

Because unless my understanding of the matter is way off, we need him to have worse than us 1 time out of 3 every single time we get here. Now, I fully accept that he may be able to do this occasionally with <KK, but 1/3 times? Phew. That to me is an enormous leap of hope over, erm, expectation.

Also, when was the last time you did this with QQ? Serious question...maybe I need to man-up in these spots when I see a check behind in a 3b pot.

checking the flop in position is a very bad and weak line imo, and that why this thread is on the air.

you got to bet/fold that flop. you got to check where you are and make a statement of a strong hand, esp when you 3bet the hand pf. villian is waiting for your move.
the poker arena is a jungle, and you played it like a doe. any hyena like villian smells this.

as played, you should call the turn only if you are going to call the river.

I mean I obviously cant give you a dead on frequency about how often he does this but in relation to his vpip and pfr he is very aggro from what I see. If he is a decent player then our hand is pretty obvious by this point so I would fully expect to see a double barrel fairly often. Im not saying he is value betting worse, I think he is fully capable of trying to push us off though. With that said, Im not a big fan of calling down two streets here which is why I just fire this flop against very aggro opponents.

you should decide whether or not he's capable of it before you check back the flop.

if we are checking behind this flop with KK, are we only betting it with Ax (sets not included)?

You say our hand is obvious...do you never check behind flop with an A here? I would relatively often. Then he leads into us on the turn and he is falling into our tarp.

Also, isn't the question of frequency absolutely central to our decision at the end? We need this to be <KK 1/3 times every single time we get this far. It doesn't really matter if we are bluffed this one time if he only does this 1/10 with <KK...fair play to him, he outplayed us this one time. But the other 9 times we get to the river either he won't fire again or we own him with a simple combo count of the A's we'll have sometimes.

The point is it doesnt really matter if you check behind with an ace here often unless villain knows that. That is why checking behind with an ace can get us a higher amount of money, because your hand looks like a scared pocket pair.

Yes frequency is important, but I cant do more than make an educated guess. And my guess is that I think we definitely can be looking at a bluff 25% of the time or more. Fwiw, if I was villain and put hero on a pocket pair, there is zero chance I fire turn and c/f most rivers. If villain doesnt plan his hands and possesses zero hand reading abilities then sure, we can fold this river. But if we assume he is at least semi competent then he should be firing the river every single time he has fired the turn unless he has a hand with moderate showdown value. Pretty much his range should be polarized to nuts and air when he fires this river.