Would you ever 5bet the flop with a hand? Would he ever 4bet the flop with a hand?

It's just balancing man. If you checkraise a flopped set and get 3bet, why would you 4bet instead flatting and check/calling the turn? Tourney players are generally caught up with the whole "I put even more money in the pot therefore my range is stronger!" while disregarding the fact that they would take a different line with nuts.

This isn't to blast on busto_soon or anything, he's undoubtedly an awesome tournament player, but heads up NL takes a different skillset which tournament players often don't adjust well to.

As for 5betting, when he 4bets this flop I don't think he ever expects you to 5bet a hand. And when you do, you'd just be shoving based on the pot size/stack sizes. But from what he thinks you think, all you need to do is put in another raise to fold out air, right? So you 5bet your air trying to be a tricky mofo, and he catapults to a new level of brilliance and 6bet shoves the 9 high for not much more, but you just can't call with nothing.

I'm not sure if that was directed at me in any way, but you think he 4bet the extremely dry flop with KJ for value??

If thats true, then how can you possibly tell scansion that 5betting to 4200 or whatever has no merit at all bc it makes him fold all his air and shove all his value hands that beat you. No matter what you do at this point, you will look extremely strong. Smoothcalling the flop actually looks stronger than the min 5bet bc MAAAAAAYBE you're making some crazy bluff. When you call villain's 4bet, there is no way at all that you have air.

You aren't making any sense. He will never ever show up with a bare K here ever on the flop so to fold a hand like KT and call AK is dumb.

sorry, i want to point this out one more time. Please explain to me how KT is different than AK and how villain can ever have a hand between those two.

scansion, nice post man.

scansion is the nuts.

lol awesome

Let's say your opponent can have two types of hands here, hands better than AK and hands worse than KT. This does not mean that you always do the same with AK that you do with KT.

pm me then

Why?

If your logic is that villain *never* has KQ or KJ here, then AK and KT are exactly equivalent. Why would you not play them the same?

Serious question, not criticism. If there is a reason to play them differently, I really want to understand. I would probably play AK and KT differently some of the time, but all of those differences would be because I thought villain *sometimes* shows up with KQ or KJ. If you really don't believe that's ever possible, then why play KT any differently?

if you are talking about some type of "fold 20% of the time, call the other 80%" then that has nothing to do with the difference between AK and KT on this board.

Sidenote: i would hope you're never getting in this situation with KT anyway bc you should not be 3balling it on this flop without a plan.

Any why are we 3balling AK anyway if we're not looking for him to spaz out somehow.

What is going on in this thread?

just caught this. wowwwww thats bad. If you're gonna 5bet 45, you need to shove it. Why would you want to give him a chance to spaz shove 9 high over your 5 high that you plan on calling off?!

Ah come on guys, read theory of poker.

so i guess this is where you make some elitist comment that makes no sense given the context and you stop "debating" about this situation.

Are you also in the camp that says 5bet/calling 45 in this situation is better than 5bet/calling AK?

bc thats still LOL.

half of these posts are levels right? hes not 6 bet shoving 9 hi on the flop.....and 5 betting 45 has some merit while 5betting AK is mildly ******ed

CFTW; you go from saying K10 isnt even close, to KJ is "50/50" you have no in between?! (mayb i'm being a dick idk, but i'm curious)

fwiw i've not read anything from paster so far (on this topic) that i disagree with.

thread got good today!

5betting 45 is FINE if you shove it. 5betting it planning to call it off is sooo bad. there is no reason at all to give him a chance to make a spaz shove.


When you call the flop 4bet, you're hand looks extremely strong. IMO, when you check behind the K on the turn, he decided it was a good card for him bc you might have AA/23 and now you can't call a river shove.


so you're plan is to call with it and represent...what exactly? Calling looks stronger than 5betting but they both look really strong. You should basically never have a real hand when you 5bet the flop bc its just ridiculous to think you're gonna get paid off, so thats why 5betting AK has merit.

at this point its just a leveling war, so saying that 5betting AK there is mildly ******ed, is mildly ******ed.

and I don't even think there is much of a difference between calling the 4bet on the flop or min 5betting. They probably both produce the same amount of return while calling might net you a bit more. I'm really not trying to argue that point.

The 2 things I do not agree with:

- 5betting 45 on this flop to an amount that is not all in, IS SOOO BAD and I would love for someone to try to convince me otherwise.

- KT is different than AK on the river.

I read that a couple times and don't understand what you're saying; sorry if I came off as elitist, I just didn't think it would be too hard to figure out. Maybe it's just my way of thinking, I understand some things like this very well yet have trouble with other concepts that others find easy to learn.

If a guy's either bluffing or has a big hand, you can't just call or fold your entire range if none of what he bets valueowns himself. I'm pretty sure Sklansky explained this stuff much better than I, in theory of poker. (I have not read the book in years though, not positive)

5bet calling 45 is really bad and you are exactly right that you need to shove it, it's a huge mistake people make. Raise/calling or bet/calling hands with some sort of equity can generally be avoided by shoving yourself, while balancing with sets and other big hands.

Of course there are spots where it's OK to do so, as a matter of fact yesterday a friend of mine played a hand against a decent played 50/100 and bet/called the turn in a 3bet pot with A9hh on like T766hh after flatting the flop. I questioned him about it, and he said that in general it's not great but in this spot he thought he'd get check/shoved on a lot by weaker draws, making the play fine. (on an even further tangent, his opponent wouldn't bet the turn with a draw himself, because bet/calling hearts is a poor play for villain as well, thus making my friend's reasoning sound)

Expecting busto to jam over 9 high is pretty enthusiastic. We don't need to balance in 4-bet/5-bet situations on the flop in a minraised flop on a dry board because it doesn't come up enough.

As for everything else in this thread, I won't even bother replying to it as I think everybody is leveling. I didn't post this hand because I didn't have any questions about it, and reading this thread has 100% made me dumber and doubt my reasoning, but I got it back.

And yes, it's very obvious AK = KT in hand strength.

I didn't say I'd want to 5-bet 45 on this flop--I said I'd RATHER 5-bet 45 to 4275 instead of AK. Obviously I'd jam 45 if I were to 5-bet it, but I would not be in this spot with 45 anyway.

I never said KT was any different from AK. I just said I'd fold KT and call AK.

By "big hand" we mean a hand better than AK I'm assuming.

The bolded sentence confuses me bc I think we might be arguing about terminology rather than actual theory.

Do you agree that KT = AK on the river?

I am not saying to snapcall the river with AK. Fold can certainly be better in some situations, but there cannot be a reason that you are folding KT but calling with AK because he will not show up with a hand between those two.

omg my brain just exploded. based on this last line, I'm going to assume this whole thing is a level and i just wasted a whole bunch of time arguing about nothing.

I wasn't leveling, nor did I post the hand. I just didn't have any questions about the hand that needed to be addressed by 2+2. I love the regs thread because everybody can validate themselves by saying "lol" and thus show the world that they are indeed better than the player they lol'ed at.

Yah I was writing the PM because I'm serious about getting better, but then some friends told me you were actually a losing NL100/200 player on a heater. Post history confirms this fact. :\

Seriously though, pfc_ivan is coaching if you actually want to win at HU, though he might not be taking students atm :\.