Do you like this fold?

Villain is 11/4/1.5 over 60 hands. At this table I'm sitting at 19/13/2.5

I had a few hands like this today where I kept getting re popped and for the most part I folded them unless it was a super lag and I had TPTK w some sort of draw.

I just feel TPTK even w AK isn't really ever good against most NITS/regs when they reraise you on the flop or the turn at 5nl. Am I letting people run over me too easily?




CO: $1.96
BTN: $2.50
SB: $6.52
BB: $12.83
UTG: $1.82
Hero (UTG+1): $7.41
UTG+2: $6.54
MP1: $3.97
MP2: $2.73

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG+1 with A K
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, UTG+2 calls $0.15, 4 folds, SB calls $0.13, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.50) 4 T K (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.40, UTG+2 calls $0.40, SB folds

Turn: ($1.30) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.95, UTG+2 raises to $2.75, Hero folds

Final Pot: $3.20
UTG+2 wins $3.05
(Rake: $0.15)




Also, if you flop TPTK and are betting out to charge draws OOP, what's the balance between protecting and having the villain just call you down with something like a set before pricing you in at the river?

nh.

you are betting for value because he will call with hands you beat.

Yeah I am trying to work on finding a balance with charging draws and getting a worse hand to stay in the pot. I realized constant PSBs aren't optimal as you can get the same hands you beat to fold for less while allowing worse hands to play when they might fold to a full pot bet.... plus those that will call and have you crushed are going to win more than if I'd bet just a couple BB less.

I was pretty much snap folding that turn re-raise. I think I just ran into the top of a lot of people's ranges the last couple of nights. Ive actually been tighter (last two days session were 14/10 and 15/11 over 2k hands) when I'm usually profiting and doing the best around 16/12.


Anyone have any advice on the bold part I posted?

my response was addressing the bold part.

his range consists of way more than draws and sets. he has stuff like KQ/AT/KT/QJ/KJ/JT/QT + all the draws/sets. and you want him calling with draws... Way more combos of hands you are ahead of and that will continue to call bets on later streets. dont think of betting out only as protection to 'charge draws', think of it more as acquiring value from worse hands that will often check behind you if you dont bet. hands you beat might continue in the hand, but against someone so passive, you need to be the one putting chips into the pot, as he isnt

also, you will usually find out about a set before the river. dont factor in the times you get raised here when considering his total possible continuance range in these spots, there will be plenty of times he just calls the turn and calls a nice half pot value bet on a safe river.

so we're putting villain exclusively on sets?

meh idk, the flop isn't exactly superdrawy imo...

i'd maybe check the turn here, if your intention is to bet fold the turn then we may as well check it and hope to get to showdown for the price of the turn bet?

turn bet is absolutely fine. OP keep playing this way and you will be moving up soon...gl

@illini43, gotcchaa haha I see what you're saying now. Didn't realize you addressing that part. Yeah, I've definitely been working on keeping hands I beat in the pot. I realize when I do raise and cbet and am getting called, the pot grows quickly (which is good).

I guess I'm mentally adjusting to the fact I can get most of it all in against calling stations a LOT of the time and this is normal and a good thing.

nh,
villains line is ******ed unless he had 66.

Frack

I came here to ask pretty much the same thing. Had a hand or two ready to post and everything. It looks like you and I play somewhat similar, so I'll piggyback here and maybe we can get a good discussion going...

My question is two-fold:
1. How exploitable are we to play at these levels?
2. Can we prevent value-towning ourselves with TPTK when charging draws.

Regarding #1, I am referring mostly to charging a draw (let's say FD) and the 3rd flush card hits. So, I have bet about 3/4 pot on 1-2 streets and the draw completes. Obviously, it is villain dependent, but in most cases I will shut down with only TPTK or maybe bet/fold. I feel that I am often getting bluffed off a pot when I check that third card OTT or OTR or show any weakness. Hero calls have cost me in the past so I tend to err on the folding side, but it feels very exploitable. I just keep repeating "they are not playing back at you" and "they are not paying enough attention to exploit here." So, I guess I am asking:
#2 is similar but is when I run into a set or two pair while charging draws. Most of the time, depending on villain, I will only try for 1 - 2 streets with TPTK, but if there is a draw out there, I feel like I have to charge these guys to chase. When the nit or passive guy reraises, it is easy to get away from TPTK...usually. However, I have a lot of hands where there are draws present and it goes: I bet 3/4 pot on flop, call, I bet 1/2-3/4 pot on turn, call, blank on river, depending on villain I'll bet or check, villain turns over 2pr or a set and I feel like I value-towned myself. On a dry board, I would have built a smaller pot, but with draws, we HAVE to charge them right? Is there a logic to get away from this or do we just think "what a weird way to play a set" and move on? So....
Anyway, probably tl;dr, but I liked that someone else had the same kind of question(s) an figured I'd jump in.

on #1: don't worry about being exploitable, but exploiting your villains. it really comes down to your confidence in your reads. If you are strong on your reads, and don't mind calling off a large, but bad, bet on the river on a missed draw, then charge your villains as much as possible. If you are a little timid with your read/money then learn to control the pot a little more and get delayed valeu.

on #2: its related to #1, as its your confidence in your reads, but you really need to pay attention to betting action and board texture to go along with your villains reads. You may thing you are charging a villains draw, but based on the action/board/villain, there may not be any reasonable draws in their range. Same goes for sets, and two pairs, some betting actions and boards may have the villains range be draw heavy, but set/two pair light. Also think about what you are repping and what villain can be calling with. Sometimes your lines are so transparent, and coupled with the fact the villain has a lot of air/monsters, that there is not a lot of value of bet, bet, bet. Think about what you are really targeting.

This.

Try and figure out what your line looks like to your opponent and what hands your opponent will call you with based on your line and the board. And what hands he might raise with - that fit with everything in the first sentence (ie: opponents aren't usually trying to make you fold when they raise after you've shown strength on a board that hits your perceived range fairly well).

For example, an 11/4 does not have many draws at all in his range. Especially when cold calling your utg+1 open from utg+2.

His range is probably only 22+, AK and perhaps AQs, making his call on the KT4 board fairly strong (44, TT-AA, AK and AQss)

He doesn't have to have a set here and might peel one off w/ JJ or QQ, so I likely still bet the turn. But I am definitely folding to a turn raise on a Kx board vs this opponent (or one w/ his perceived profile at least).

Good info, there, Sammy and Abelian, thanks

With the 11/4 in the OP, I agree and have learned to read that those guys are not likely on draws and are only continuing as you mentioned, so I can adjust there. I read somewhere here once that this is how you exploit that kind of player: Pick up the pot on a cbet 9/10 times and fold to the reraise on the 1/10 time he reraises. My real troubles come with the 30-40+VPIP guys. They will continue with any kind of a draw usually, so I feel I need to charge them and I end up building a bigger pot than usual with TPTK only to find them flatting all the way with 2pr+. When they do this on a dry board, the pot ends up small and I think "wow, you won the minimum with that hand," but when I am charging draws it feels like I am spewing. Of course, I could just be remembering the negative outcomes more clearly than the positive ones so it seems worse than it is.

This seems likely.

Basically, bet until raised and then fold. Play cautiously when obvious draws come in and trust raises (especially on flushed boards) until you have a reason not to.

It definitely sucks building a pot and having that 3rd heart come in on and river and face either a donk bet or a check/raise. But, they almost always have it there.

I feel like the turn is still a bet for value.

If you bet the turn are you saying you always call a turn re raise in a situation like this or shove over top? I can't see it being optimal to say well, if I'm betting the turn I need to go into auto pilot shove mode so instead I'll avoid that scenario by check / calling. I feel a check call would set you up to lose more on the river and you would have no idea where you are at at that point.

If he had called the turn I'd probably ~half pot the river, maybe a little more.

What's your reasoning for checking the turn? I am by NO means saying I am right as I am still learning the game. If you have some additional insight I missed, I'd definitely like to hear your thoughts.

I think OP's bet sizing is excellent given the info we have and the fact that zero draws came in ott.

If hero has a note on villain saying 'only continues with sets' over a huge sample c/f turn is okay otherwise, as with here, villain is charging lots of , KX type hands and combo draws perfectly.

Nh OP.

I'd bet turn bigger. Folding to the raise on the turn is fine.