07-03-2009 , 07:45 PM
I am not a shortstacker. I have played it but I enjoy deepstack too much. Yet, the majority of hate surrounding shortstacking is so ignorant and stupid. This is especially true at the 10-50nl level.

The arguments against shortstackers go something like this:

Quote:
Short Stacking is a mathematical loophole that allows players to win by making marginal +EV decisions, as well as minimizing their losses due to their low stack.
1. Just as with deepstacks the majority of shortstacks are losing players. In fact, short-stacks should be the easiest to play against. They have a set range that they play with, and they aren't polarizing it. This means you know when you beat their range and you know when you don't. After adding in the FPPS you get every time you face them, why not let the bad shortstackers around stay around?

2. Playing against a shortstacker effectively makes you a shortstacker and gives you all of the benefits. You are minimizing your potential loss.

Quote:
The good shortstackers are the parasites of poker. They leech away your bb/100 over time.
This is by far the most ignorant argument against shortstacking. Lets sum up poker in 2-3 sentences:

There are two types of poker players, the fish and the sharks. The sharks make little if any money off of each other. The sharks make most of their money off of the fish.

So, there are 4 types of players. Fish Shortstackers, Fish DeepStackers, Shark Shortstackers, Shark DeepStackers.

Lets look at a hypothetical situation, and I hope you consider yourself a shark before reading:

You are sitting at a table with 7 fish. There is one spot open. As a poker player you want another fish, as that is +EV. So:

You want:
1. Fish DeepStacks
2. Fish ShortStacks

You don't want:
1. Shark Shortstacks.
2. Shark Deepstacks.

So why is it when a Shark Shortstack sits down they are "leeching" your BB, when Shark Deepstacks are essentially doing the same?

What gives?

Lets transition into another argument:

Quote:
I don't have a problem with shortstackers, heck I make money off of most of them! What I hate is when they rathole with MY MONEY. I mean like there's a reason you cant do that at casinos!
Lesson 1:
Fact: Ratholing isn't allowed at casinos.
Reason: To prevent fish from doubling up and leaving. It is +EV to keep fish there.
Difference: In live poker if a fish ratholes you will never see him again, and never have a chance to become +EV against him in the long run. Online poker is different, you will run into fish again.

Lession 2:
Fact: Once the chips enter the pot, they are no longer yours.
Fact: If you want a shortstack to stay so you can "get your money back" probably means your going to spew and tilt against him. So you can thank him for not allowing you to do that.

So, when a short stack is ratholing one of two situations is happening:

A. A fish shortstack is ratholing. Bummer, you will see him again... it's online poker. As long as your +EV against him in the long-run you shouldn't be complaining.

B. A shark shortstack is ratholing. Why the **** would you be mad? Him leaving allows a potential fish to join. Lose a good opponent, Gain a bad opponent. Hmmmmmm.

Conclusion: In the long run allowing short stacks to play with you, especially in the 10-50 nl level is +EV. By allowing 50bb min tables you essentially cut out a good portion of fish. In addition you will only be playing against Shark deepstacks (they stick around, don't expect them to free up a spot for a fish anytime soon).

Today I saw 5 shortstacks double up and keep playing. I would never want to stop playing against idiots like this.

Today I also had a guy say in chat, and I quote: "Shortstackers are tough to play against. Thats why I only buy in for 40bb now. That way I can't lose as much to them."

I can already hear the horde of 1bb/100 deepstack players running to this thread...

Last edited by Falian; 07-03-2009 at 08:00 PM.
07-03-2009 , 08:01 PM
use the search function, this whole shortstacking discussion thing has been done a million times

Quote:
Playing against a shortstacker effectively makes you a shortstacker and gives you all of the benefits. You are minimizing your potential loss.
also this is wrong because you're not playing HU vs the shortstacker, the reason shortstacking works is because you're forcing deepstacks to make mistakes vs you in order to play optimally against each other

in before

07-03-2009 , 08:03 PM
Calling people ignorant and stupid without knowing the facts makes you look really silly.

Quote:
You want:
1. Fish DeepStacks
2. Fish ShortStacks

You don't want:
1. Shark Shortstacks.
2. Shark Deepstacks.

So why is it when a Shark Shortstack sits down they are "leeching" your BB, when Shark Deepstacks are essentially doing the same?

What gives?
No half-decent player at uNL hates shortstackers because they can't win money from them.

At uNL there are no 'shark' short stackers, just Fish shortstackers.. but a tablefull of fish shortstacks is less profitable than a table full of fish deepstacks, hence their presence eats away at a winning players BB/100.

It is extremely easy to just play a +EV range against them and profit from them, but it is a good bit smaller than the amount you can win from a full stack. Shortstackers make full ring a grinding chore sometimes.
It really isn't hard to understand, no need to call people ignorant.
07-03-2009 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaEqualsLuna
Calling people ignorant and stupid without knowing the facts makes you look really silly.

No half-decent player at uNL hates shortstackers because they can't win money from them.

At uNL there are no 'shark' short stackers, just Fish shortstackers.. but a tablefull of fish shortstacks is less profitable than a table full of fish deepstacks, hence their presence eats away at a winning players BB/100.

It is extremely easy to just play a +EV range against them and profit from them, but it is a good bit smaller than the amount you can win from a full stack. Shortstackers make full ring a grinding chore sometimes.
It really isn't hard to understand, no need to call people ignorant.
I apologize for labeling everyone as ignorant. Your post obviously shows that you understand where i'm coming from.

Yet, your post pretty much agrees with mine. There are a lot of bad shortstackers, some are trying to short stack effectively, others due it because they don't have the BR to deepstack.

So, why would you want to make unlimited 50bb tables? wouldn't that sometimes replace bad short-stackers with good deep-stackers? That seems very -EV to me.

People often say, when talking about 50bb min tables, "Yea there are a lot more regs but it sure beats playing shortstackers." That doesn't seem to line up with your argument.
07-03-2009 , 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyPixel
use the search function, this whole shortstacking discussion thing has been done a million times

also this is wrong because you're not playing HU vs the shortstacker, the reason shortstacking works is because you're forcing deepstacks to make mistakes vs you in order to play optimally against each other

in before

I was referring to you actively playing a shortstack in a HU hand, not in general. If a reg deepstack is in a multi-way pot with you and a fish, don't you have to play differently as well?

Also, a nit shortstack isn't going to affect your game much, if at all. If he's on your left you can easily blind steal. If he's on your right then you can get out of hands that you wouldn't play against him.
07-03-2009 , 08:26 PM
cliff notes: it's not about beating the short stacks but about them leading to not be able to play as effectively against the other full stacks.
07-03-2009 , 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kflip
cliff notes: it's not about beating the short stacks but about them leading to not be able to play as effectively against the other full stacks.

Competition forces you to continually improve yourself. This is why Capitalism > Communism.

Attempting to restrict players from using a strategy that reduces your edge is wrong.
07-03-2009 , 08:40 PM
Tastes great!

Less filling!!

Tastes Great!!!

Less Filling!!!!

And so on.
07-03-2009 , 08:40 PM
lol wat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falian
I wasn't complaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falian
Competition forces you to continually improve yourself.
Sure thing. What does this have to do with short stacker at poker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falian
This is why Capitalism > Communism.
WAT? I'm not into politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falian
Attempting to restrict players from using a strategy that reduces your edge is wrong.
Agreed. I'm looking to play in games where I max out my edge ldo.
07-03-2009 , 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kflip
lol wat?

I wasn't complaining.

Sure thing. What does this have to do with short stacker at poker?

WAT? I'm not into politics.

Agreed. I'm looking to play in games where I max out my edge ldo.
Oh, I misinterpreted your post then.

I was using that metaphor to essentially say if you aren't having to constantly improve yourself by facing new competition, such as short stacking, then your allowing people to catch up to your skill level.
07-03-2009 , 08:54 PM
Shortstackers < scum

but seriously what is the point here? you like a table full of 20bb stacks?

(EDIT: now you come to mention it shortstacking sounds cool. I might just erase everything I've ever learnt about pokers from my tiny little shortstacking hater mind and just play off a chart)

No problem with playing against shortstackers they are all useless just real annoying when you get AA or KK and all you win is 20bb

Last edited by SI-KICK; 07-03-2009 at 09:02 PM.
07-03-2009 , 09:13 PM

The deeper the stacks the more edge the sharks have over the fish. The shorter the stacks the lesser the edge.

It is natural that those who have worked so hard on developing there skill set would want to play in games with deeper stacks.

Its kinda like taking the NFL and changing the regulation size of the field to 10 yards between each end zone, firing all the coaches, quarter backs and receivers and repacing them with sumo wrestlers. Oh look no room to run, pass or outmaneuvre the opposition whatsoever.

It wouldn't be called football anymore, as it would now be a game of 'Push' and 'Shove'.
07-03-2009 , 09:26 PM
not a very good level. I give it a 2. (out of 10 ldo)
07-03-2009 , 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SI-KICK
Shortstackers < scum

but seriously what is the point here? you like a table full of 20bb stacks?

(EDIT: now you come to mention it shortstacking sounds cool. I might just erase everything I've ever learnt about pokers from my tiny little shortstacking hater mind and just play off a chart)

No problem with playing against shortstackers they are all useless just real annoying when you get AA or KK and all you win is 20bb
GL playing off a chart, post back after you run at -4.5bb.

No, my point isn't that I like 20bb stacks all around me.
07-03-2009 , 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBowlBoy

The deeper the stacks the more edge the sharks have over the fish. The shorter the stacks the lesser the edge.

It is natural that those who have worked so hard on developing there skill set would want to play in games with deeper stacks.

Its kinda like taking the NFL and changing the regulation size of the field to 10 yards between each end zone, firing all the coaches, quarter backs and receivers and repacing them with sumo wrestlers. Oh look no room to run, pass or outmaneuvre the opposition whatsoever.

It wouldn't be called football anymore, as it would now be a game of 'Push' and 'Shove'.
I like your analogy. I don't know if its possible to filter but could you try to see if you can show your bb/100 w/o shortstackers and your bb/100 with 1 shortstacker?

I was stating my opinion on the situation and looking for feedback. So, I appreciate your response.
07-03-2009 , 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falian
Oh, I misinterpreted your post then.

I was using that metaphor to essentially say if you aren't having to constantly improve yourself by facing new competition, such as short stacking, then your allowing people to catch up to your skill level.
I've started 4 sentences but I really don't know how to respond to this.

Shortstackers = next to no skill, they are certainly not "catching up to our skill level."

Different formats of poker have varying ratios of skill:luck. Deep stack games have a bigger skill edge because there's enough room postflop for the skill to come out. Shortstack games and the ends of tournaments have a much bigger luck ratio.

It's not really about improving. It's about us not wanting to have to play a shortstack game just because someone decides they want to sit with 20BB. They do it to decrease the skill edge and increase the luck ratio. The more skilled you are you should logically want that skill edge to work for you and that means deeper and deeper stacks the better you are. If we wanted to flip coins all day cause we suck at poker we'd flip coins all day.

Thankfully there's 50BB min tables now and we don't have to deal with them anymore. This is the correct solution imo since SSing vs deep stacking should be as different in game format as NLHE is to PLO. You wouldn't let someone sit down in your NLHE game and demand 4 cards, so I see no difference in not wanting to play against people that drastically alter the strategy behind the game. SSers can have their non 50BB tables and flip each other all day and us normal people can have our 50BB tables.

I also agree that the hate isn't needed anymore for this very reason. There were no rules besides 20BB min in the past so I couldn't hate on them in the past either, but it's just frankly annoying as hell when someone's strat automatically overrides anything else going on at the table and turns the entire system into a gongshow.

edit: Happy I see you really liked my "Choo Choo 2 Minutes Hate!"
07-03-2009 , 09:50 PM
You aren't factoring in the rake and the fact that most of the time you will put your money in flipping coins against shortstackers. This means the rake has a much bigger effect on your winrate over them.
07-03-2009 , 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1
I've started 4 sentences but I really don't know how to respond to this.

Shortstackers = next to no skill, they are certainly not "catching up to our skill level."

Different formats of poker have varying ratios of skill:luck. Deep stack games have a bigger skill edge because there's enough room postflop for the skill to come out. Shortstack games and the ends of tournaments have a much bigger luck ratio.

It's not really about improving. It's about us not wanting to have to play a shortstack game just because someone decides they want to sit with 20BB. They do it to decrease the skill edge and increase the luck ratio. The more skilled you are you should logically want that skill edge to work for you and that means deeper and deeper stacks the better you are. If we wanted to flip coins all day cause we suck at poker we'd flip coins all day.

Thankfully there's 50BB min tables now and we don't have to deal with them anymore. This is the correct solution imo since SSing vs deep stacking should be as different in game format as NLHE is to PLO. You wouldn't let someone sit down in your NLHE game and demand 4 cards, so I see no difference in not wanting to play against people that drastically alter the strategy behind the game. SSers can have their non 50BB tables and flip each other all day and us normal people can have our 50BB tables.

I also agree that the hate isn't needed anymore for this very reason. There were no rules besides 20BB min in the past so I couldn't hate on them in the past either, but it's just frankly annoying as hell when someone's strat automatically overrides anything else going on at the table and turns the entire system into a gongshow.

edit: Happy I see you really liked my "Choo Choo 2 Minutes Hate!"
Haha, thanks for the response. I guess I haven't had any issues with SSer's yet to really understand the issue. Maybe i'll need to post an apology in a few weeks :P
07-03-2009 , 09:57 PM
9 players with full stacks puts 900BB on the table. Replace 4 of them w/20BB and you have 480BB on the table. A lot less money, barely more than half, available to win, and paying the same rake. That's why I don't like playing with SSers.
07-03-2009 , 09:58 PM
The point isn't that they arn't beatable, the point is they tighten up the table because people are afraid to raise with poor hands because zomg! their just going to push allin.
07-03-2009 , 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jafeather
9 players with full stacks puts 900BB on the table. Replace 4 of them w/20BB and you have 480BB on the table. A lot less money, barely more than half, available to win, and paying the same rake. That's why I don't like playing with SSers.
Alright, that makes sense.

m