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Old 07-20-2008, 11:22 AM   #1
Gugel
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Post Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

Here's the plan for this post:
-Thank you to Microstakes
-Brag
-Turn Betting Strategy

Thank you Microstakes. I appreciate all the advice I received on my hand posts.

Now, here comes the brag:
Most of you here don't know me, but I used to 12-table $100NL back in day at 10BB/100. I quit poker 2 years ago, but I recently decided to get back in the game. I had one of my buddies send me over $300 and I decided to take a shot at $25NL (I know 12 buyins is not ideal, but I was willing to take a shot). Anyway, in 5 days, I had built my bankroll to $750 and had a 15 buyin roll to take a shot at $50NL. 6 days later, my bankroll was around $1900 and I was confident about moving up to $100. I ran really hot at $100 and today, 12 days after I started playing poker again, my roll is at $2550 after paying back my buddy the original $300. Before you say I just run sick-hot, note that I played 50,000 hands in these 12 days. I can play around 1000 hands per hour 12-tabling 6-max. Anyway, here are some graphs:

BB/100


$25NL


$50NL


$100NL (so hot)


Ok, brag done.

Finally, I wanted to contribute a bit with a strategy post. Here, we'll talk about the turn. It's a weakness for many players.

The essence of turn strategy is pot control. Obviously there are a million exceptions and you should mix up your game, but for simplicities sake, you should always have the following in the back of your mind: bet/raise the turn if you want a big pot. Check (or fold to a bet) on the turn if you want to keep the pot medium/small. I see many players building a big pot on the turn and then not knowing what to do on the river with a TPTK.

Here's an interesting hand. By the turn, I don't want to make this into a huge pot. I want to get to showdown for cheap. Checking the turn allows me to easily call the river bet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($70.60)
BB ($117.75)
UTG ($53.75)
Hero ($46.25)
CO ($59.50)
Button ($38.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J.
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, Button calls $2, 2 folds.

Flop: ($4.75) 7, 6, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button calls $4.

Turn: ($12.75) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($12.75) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $22.75

Results in white below:
Hero has Js Jc (one pair, jacks).
Button has Td Jh (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $22.75.




Here's a common problem: You bet preflop, bet the flop, and now if you check the turn, you think it makes your hand look weak. That's not as big of a problem as it might seem... Most of the time, you'll have a hand with decent showdown value and by checking the turn, you might inspire a bluff which you can pick off on the river. You'll also mix up your play and occasionally check the turn with a monster. Finally, by not betting the turn, you have an option to bluff the river (less expensively than if you had bet the turn).

Just remember that the turn is the key street in controlling pot size. The very general guidelines (again lots of exceptions) are: Bet/raise the turn for big pots (you can easily push-all in on the river) and check/fold the turn for small pots.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone at Micro. I wish you all the best of luck and feel free to ask me any questions.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:12 PM   #2
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

In the example hand, what are you doing if villain bets turn? If villain bets turn you don't know if he's bluffing the scare card or has hit his ace. If you call, you're faced with a bit pot OOP on the river without knowing where you're at.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:30 PM   #3
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

Sold brag, not so sure about strategy.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:36 PM   #4
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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Sold brag, not so sure about strategy.
this
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:39 PM   #5
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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In the example hand, what are you doing if villain bets turn? If villain bets turn you don't know if he's bluffing the scare card or has hit his ace. If you call, you're faced with a bit pot OOP on the river without knowing where you're at.
Very read dependent if I fold or call. The ace is a huge scare card...
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:39 PM   #6
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

wow ur running hot at 100nl. solid brag
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:40 PM   #7
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

You just run sick hot! 9BI over 1700 hands, that's pretty good.

I wanted to ask you about multi-tabling. How do you make reads when you are constantly playing 12-tables at once? I have 8tabled at most in cash games and every decision has to be done instantly. Are you relying much on stats? Are you willing to take a high variance play in any hand?
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:55 PM   #8
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

a few questions if you don't mind:

1. what do you do for table selection?

2. what software do you use/have?

3. why 12 tables? is that just the most number of tables you can play/handle or have you determined that 12 tables = your greatest hourly rate?

thanks
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:57 PM   #9
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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You just run sick hot! 9BI over 1700 hands, that's pretty good.

I wanted to ask you about multi-tabling. How do you make reads when you are constantly playing 12-tables at once? I have 8tabled at most in cash games and every decision has to be done instantly. Are you relying much on stats? Are you willing to take a high variance play in any hand?
The vast, vast majority of decisions are fairly automatic. It's rare that I need to think about what to do in more than 1 table out of the 12. There is a pattern (bet size, bet timing, reads, etc.) in poker, its just masked by a degree of randomness. Once you have that underlying pattern in your head, the decisions come quickly.
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:01 PM   #10
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

To illustrate that underlying pattern, I wrote an article a while back about river bets. You can read it here: http://www.anskypoker.com/bettiming.html

Anyway, the pattern is, about 1/3 of bets on the river are bluffs. Of the people that did bluff, the shorter it took them to place a bet, the more likely it was a bluff.
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:03 PM   #11
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

But I thought the main micro problem was not betting the turn enough for value? I used to almost never bet the turn with only one pair but there's a ton of value you miss at times. Especially since the micro players aren't that aggressive so you often don't have to fear a check raise.

That hand is okay, because betting the ace kind of turns your hand into a bluff but you want some value for your jacks since they're probably good
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:08 PM   #12
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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But I thought the main micro problem was not betting the turn enough for value? I used to almost never bet the turn with only one pair but there's a ton of value you miss at times. Especially since the micro players aren't that aggressive so you often don't have to fear a check raise.

That hand is okay, because betting the ace kind of turns your hand into a bluff but you want some value for your jacks since they're probably good
And here I was thinking the problem was not betting the river.
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:11 PM   #13
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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And here I was thinking the problem was not betting the river.
Yea, a river bet would have worked here too.
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:14 PM   #14
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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Originally Posted by sunnycalifornia View Post
a few questions if you don't mind:

1. what do you do for table selection?

2. what software do you use/have?

3. why 12 tables? is that just the most number of tables you can play/handle or have you determined that 12 tables = your greatest hourly rate?

thanks
1. table selection: I look mostly for 100BB stacks and no more than 2 regs on a 6-max table. Short stacks have an inherent advantage and I wouldn't want more than 2 short stacks at my table.

2. Hold'em Manager

3. 12 tables generates my highest hourly rate (and it's the most I can handle too).
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Old 07-20-2008, 07:35 PM   #15
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

Is that a 3.33BB/100 (or ptbb/100 if you prefer) winrate at 50NL over those 30k hands?

I am extremely dubious about the statement that "The essence of turn strategy is pot control", even allowing for your caveats. And while I agree that the turn is a problem street for weaker players, I would say it is for the opposite reason: too much pot control, not too little.

On something else you wrote: "Just remember that the turn is the key street in controlling pot size". Again, I am not convinced this is true. Sure, the turn is the point at which the pot can get very big, but one could equally say that if you plan on vb'ing 3 streets, the flop is the most important street to bet-size correctly because it dictates the pot growth in the rest of the hand.
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Old 07-20-2008, 09:15 PM   #16
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

gl Gugel i think i played you at 50nl on stars sometime over the last few days. Remember your name/avatar but don't think played too long together.

btw i don't agree with your example hand i am betting that nearly all the time. The ace is a scare card for him more than you as there are not many A's in his range, but plenty in yours.

Sick amount of hands too...
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:34 PM   #17
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

Solid brag. Can't wait for all the people you took monies from to post their beats.

I like your turn strategy and your example.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:51 PM   #18
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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Is that a 3.33BB/100 (or ptbb/100 if you prefer) winrate at 50NL over those 30k hands?
HM can uses bb/100 unless you switch it to BB/100. Looks like he is still in bb/100, so yeah I'm pretty sure that's 3 BB/100, which is still better than I could do playing that many tables.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:58 PM   #19
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

Congrats on graduating.

I am currently grinding 25 NL and doing very well, but only playing 4 tables at once. I was hoping you could possibly elaborate or give any tips on multi-tabling beyond 4 tables (I guess I should shoot for 8). I know this is a general question, but any advice would be appreciated as doubling my tables would help me graduate much quicker.

Thanks.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:53 AM   #20
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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Congrats on graduating.

I am currently grinding 25 NL and doing very well, but only playing 4 tables at once. I was hoping you could possibly elaborate or give any tips on multi-tabling beyond 4 tables (I guess I should shoot for 8). I know this is a general question, but any advice would be appreciated as doubling my tables would help me graduate much quicker.

Thanks.
Just start by adding one table at a time, play untill you get comfortable with that extra table and keep adding untill you feel that your decisions are affected by the amount of tables you are playing. Also, monitor size is a consideration as well, I use a 22" and a 17", and I cant play any more than 8 tables without stacking because my eyes are horrible. Now if your playing FR just stack 24 tables and put yourself on autopilot, but dont expect any kind of killer winrate like above (remember WCG).
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:39 AM   #21
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

Monitor size is somethign I was worried about. I just have a 17 right now, but I have a 19 sitting around I can hook up and play two monitors at once.

How hard is it to stack tables? (I play on stars for cash games). It seems like it wouldn't be too bad (esp) for only 8 tables since stars tables pop up when the actions is on you. The only downside would be that you can't follow the action of a hand you are in and you might miss reads, but I guess 90% of the time you just glance to see their action and their stats and make your decision based on that.
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Old 07-21-2008, 01:42 AM   #22
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

I prefer not to stack tables playing 6max, I prefer to be able to track the fish at all of my table. I cant remember them all when playing FR so stacking is no big deal.
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Old 07-21-2008, 03:46 AM   #23
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

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Originally Posted by atruegrinder View Post
Monitor size is somethign I was worried about. I just have a 17 right now, but I have a 19 sitting around I can hook up and play two monitors at once.

How hard is it to stack tables? (I play on stars for cash games). It seems like it wouldn't be too bad (esp) for only 8 tables since stars tables pop up when the actions is on you. The only downside would be that you can't follow the action of a hand you are in and you might miss reads, but I guess 90% of the time you just glance to see their action and their stats and make your decision based on that.
For me it's a lot easier to track my tables if they're all tiled on one monitor rather than spread across two.
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Old 07-21-2008, 03:48 AM   #24
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

fwiw I think I saw you open-limp a few times today? :\
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:09 AM   #25
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Re: Graduating Micro - A Thank You and Some Thoughts on Turn Strategy

Maybe he misclicked. I open limp about once a session due to misclicking.
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