For simplicity sake: The scenario is Zone poker without info on villian

-Theoretically speaking what is the optimal fold to 3bet %?
-What is the maximum fold to 3bet % for a nitty player which may be exploitable, but not severely?

Crunching some numbers, it appears 66+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+ have the most equity vs a combination of tight and loose 3bet ranges.
Would you put hands like J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s before any of these hands, like say AJo?


Would this be a decent range + 3bet defense on the cut-off:

18% PFR
52% fold to 3bet



Thanks for your help!

Dark blue is 4bet bluff?

Also going to depend on each villain and position or not.

K9s is a better open than 55-22

defend frequency depends heavily on the size of the 3 bet and the spr


you also didnt say if you are facing an IP 3 bet or OOP 3bet

A good rule is just defend 45% of your opening range... Just figure out what your range is and fold 55% vs standard sizes

so what pos 3bets?
also K5s > 33/22

The minimum defence frequency is 28% given standard sizings so you can't fold to 3bets more than 72% of the time.It's a 9bb bet to win 12.5bb pot = 9/12.5 = 72%.Ideally you want to defend somewhere between 35% and 45% depending whether your ip or oop.Here's an example of a default 45% range with an 18% open frequency ip.One thing i would add is 18% is a little bit tight id go for something closer to 22%-24% from the co.But is perfectly ok to start at 18% and add some combos as you get more comfortable.

18% defence range ip vs 3bet 45%
https://imgur.com/nvc5n08

Another option is to add AJo along with ATs KTs from the co as optional 4bet bluffs.And just 4bet bluff the wheel aces as a default and pick and choose good spots with those other hands to 4bet bluff.

Here's a link to a freel tool for constructing those ranges for anyone that doesn't have it.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...b_Cx450HiNcACX

If you want to work out your 4bet bluff ratio divide your value combos by 1.5 for a 60/40 value bluff ratio.So QQ+ AK = 34 combos 34/1.5 = 22 bluff combos.Hopefully some of that comes in useful it's about the best i can explain from the knowledge i have.

Good info in this thread, I'd like to add that just fold more the lower your stakes are. The positive EV of some of the preflop 3b defends in equilibrium come from the fact that they do great vs villains bluffs.

Mdf tells you how to defend vs someone 3betting any 2 cards. Nobody 3bets any 2 cards. Youcan't defend based on equity vs v's perceived range either because you will not realize that same % . This onlyapplies when you're all in. Don'tforget to factor in rake.

That's a given and actually means we can defend closer to the mdf and not be exploited for it which might not be so bad.Somewhere between 35%-45% ip and 30% to 40% oop with erring on the tighter side and caution not being a terrible thing.

As a default you can only defend on equity vs a percieved range in a vacuum because you dont know their range so we make certain assumptions.

my point was you realize the equity (% of the pot) that you calculate pre only in all in situations. the % is going to be different with post flop play involved and you will either over or more often under realize. on top of that, there's rake to pay, which is no small matter. so don't defend solely based on equity.

Agreed.

When being OOP against a 3x 3b you want to fold about 50-55% , 4b 15-20% and call what is left. 4 betting is quite important because when you call Villain sees a flop and can realize a s*** t** of equity. IP you can fold about the same amount vs a 4x 3b (oop people usually 4 bet larger) but you can 4 bet less (10-15%) because villian can not realize equity that easy being OOP. vs a 5x 3 bet when being IP ( i.e. min open on the btn and sb 3 bets to 10bb) you can fold 70%.

Thank you very much for the tool. It makes it infinitely easier to check out the top % of my range than going hand by hand in equilab

are you saying K5s is a better open on the cutoff than 33/22 or it's a better light 4bet?

K5s is a better open than 33/22 in EP, MP, CO

Okay, so if I add K9s to my cutoff range (I'll add k8s-k5s later)
I have an 18.3% range

Sticking to this nittier range (rather than 22-24% as suggested)
I think I can continue with slightly more than 45% of hands

If I decide to 4bet light with AJo instead of A4s, A3s, A2s
Is there anything wrong with this strategy?




I'm continuing with 48.8% of my Range
(half the time I'm flatting the 3bet, and half I'm 4betting)
My 4bet/light 4bet ratio is 59/41

i think this was aksed before, but who is 3 betting? BTN ? SB? BB?
how big do you raise preflop and how big is the 3 bet?
your cut off range is really uber nitty

Depends. Against a very narrow 3-bet range you should fold almost your entire range. No problems there every player, if they are not totally horrible, make money from their AA and KK.

In this scenario let's say I open for 3.5 and Button 3bets to 10.5

Assuming you track your online poker results, how many of these hands do you play profitably in the cutoff?

K8s-K4s, Q9s, Q8s, J8s, T8s, T7s, 97s, 96s, 86s, 75s, 65s
A9-A7, A5, A4, KT, QJ, QT, JT

K5s is a better open than 33 in EP?

Seems counterintuitive could u please explain

i break even with A9o
The suited hands are all winning. But i dont open all of them when btn is uber aggro.


well fwiw K5s and 33 are low frequency opens in EP according to Monker. But Monker pretty much pure opens K5s in MP while it is still mixing 33 in the CO. Even Q6s is a pure open in the CO. I can only make assumptions to why that is. You block Kx hands. That means you will get 3 bet less often. seeing the flop and realizing equity is a big thing. also Kxs flops much better. you can make TP and Flushes.

as per pete clarke it is 45%

please check this video or grinders manual
he specifically addresses CO vs SB, CO vs BTN situations.

6-Max Cash Game Guide, Episode 7 - Facing 3-Bets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcG7y2iO_JQ

For the range you gave id construct it with less pp's to defend and i do think the suited wheel aces make better 4bet bluffs. Id personally have AJo as an optional 4bet bluff. As for the opening range yes it's tight but if thats your comfort level then its fine. Just keep playing around until your comfortable with your ranges contrary to belief not everyone plays the same ranges the same way. If your using a hud get a good size sample and see whats profitable and unprofitable from each position for you personally and add or remove hands accordingly as you progress.

https://imgur.com/6IvcmGb
..

It's very very important that you backwards when doing this kind of work. Those ranges are going to get you absolutely destroyed on ignition zone. You are right that there atighter and wider ranges, merging those ranges together will get you exploited by both. Watch the bet sizing, the stack size, and the timing tells. It may be 2 guys 3-betting every time. No joke.

Are you winning with KT, QJ, QT, JT?
If so, is it more than just marginally?