Sorry I believe I started it, back on track. How to play KK...

Since when is a 6-max 15/6 with 1% 3bet a fish? Sounds like a nit to me.

I used exactly this strategy last night after reading this post. Villin was 10/8 or thereabouts so I figured 3betting him would isolate his range to AA. Board stayed low all the way down and I just called all the way to see him flip QQ. Bet he was pissed.

Before reading this I definitely would have 3bet KK preflop and continued to play it aggressively on the low board. This post has opened up new doors to me to maximize my value from big overpairs so thanks for that.

Nice OP.

Not sure about some of the SPR stuff though. Aren't premium hands triskadekaphobic, i.e. averse to SPRs of around 13? So manipulating the SPR from 9 to 13 seems bad. Either pull it down lower towards 4, or keep it high, 20+, where you have the room to get away from monsters but still make good value when ahead. And of course that deep, overset mining becomes an issue, which is to say smaller PPs become RIO hands.

Surely this is -EV in comparison to having a higher 3bet% and popping with more than QQ+. If Villian wants to fold PF, let them. Just don't tell then you're doing it with 56s.

A lot of regs, specially Micro (not that I know SSNL) love to open call with TT-QQ and are all too happy to C/F a 7 high flop OOP.

Can i ever get away from this.

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $18.15
Hero (UTG): $15.00
UTG+1: $8.15
MP1: $2.35
MP2: $9.50
CO: $6.95
BTN: $9.20
SB: $4.35

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with K K
Hero raises to $0.35, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.35, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.95) K A 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, MP2 calls $0.65

Turn: ($2.25) 4
Hero bets $1.05, MP2 calls $1.05

River: ($4.35) A
Hero bets $4.35, MP2 calls $4.35

Final Pot: $13.05
UTH shows K K (a full house, Kings full of Aces)
MP2 shows A K (a full house, Aces full of Kings)
MP2 wins $13.05

update:

I have looked at the profitability of KK AIPF in a few leak finder sessions with guys playing NL $10 and NL $25 in the past couple of days.

They are all profitable. The one I saw today was at 246bb/100 hands AIPF against full stackers.

You guys playing $25 and below want to be really careful about slowing down preflop with KK. Your default play should remain getting it in for 100bb deep. You're looking for guys that have insanely high fold to 3 bets to even consider not getting it in. Probably you are looking at a very specific situation only--UTG is a nit with an insanely high fold to 3 bet of 75 or 80%.

And remember the main point of what I said: your goal is not to stop shipping KK pre-flop. Your goal is to play your other hands in a way that makes it more profitable for you to ship KK routinely than it is if you don't play your other hands more aggressively.

PLEASE do not take the wrong message away from my OP, which was focused on the exceptional situations, probably less than 10%, where you might consider something other than shipping. Shipping remains the standard play.

The hand described by Wants above is a solid slow play. Look for spots similar to that one.

_____________________

I haven't had time to write the third part I was planning, and it doesn't look like I am going to.

If you saw mine you might change your mind back, lol. 25nl and while it is a smallish sample size of only 21-22,000 hands, every time I've gotten it allin PF villain had AA. I used to also think "KK, ship it PF no worries" but since you wrote this article and I looked at my database where they always had AA, I'm beginning to wonder. I do play fairly aggressively too.

Garon

UTG limper is 67/0
UTG+1 is 10/9

No history between villain and I, this is the first time he's seen my 3bet.

So is this a spot where folding to a 4bet might be the best play?


Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $24.25
SB: $40.75
BB: $28.00
UTG: $56.55
UTG+1: $54.65
UTG+2: $85.75
MP1: $50.00
MP2: $50.00
Hero (CO): $51.35

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with K K
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 raises to $2.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 4 folds, UTG+1 raises to $15

This is not the case for me at 25NL(discalimer, not the biggest of databases).

x-posted from the FTP thread

This was against full stacked villains, 5 out of 6 times with KK was vs AA at 25NL. Games are changing, full stacked decent players are not 4bet shipping anything else than AA while I hold KK (sure the rare KK vs KK hand happens), but when I hold KK it's not very likely that villain has KK, so that leaves AA.

Must be that I don't play other hands in a way that they would ship QQ, JJ, AK i.e.

Shipping against non-full stacked players is still profitable, and shipping against full stacked maniacs too (if one could ever catch AA vs them ofc )

I agree, I see the same thing.

About 60BB seems to be the cut off for me. Above, it is AA or KK every time. Below, about 10% of the time it is AA.

Note, I am only 50/50 against KK aifp over the past 3 months.

thanks for this.

what's your thinking about flat calling with KK expecting/inducing a squeeze with the idea of shoving to a 4bet? what conditions are right? how often does it happen?

It happens when I am tilting and I have QQ.

Thought he wrote a line or two about that in the OP

Could be a good play if you have some maniac who likes to 3bet/squeeze a lot on your left. But against good players it's pretty polarizing imo.

brag: today i was playing quite deep game and had KK. Pre villain raised, i 3bet him and he 4bet me. I was sure he had aces, so i called. Flop came 8K8, he bets, i shoved - he shows aces. and sweet 350 bb pot comes home.

But your post was really awesome, just read it again.

at some tables people just never stop 3betting/squeezing. I find this play super profitable if you are prepared to release your KK in a MW pot that had not been 3bet with a dangerous board

An interesting question is when you 4bet or smooth call..... 4betting is transperant for a good player, calling is harder to play, especially, OOP what's your view?

As someone correctly noted upthread, this thread works as a general guide for playing overpairs. With that in mind, I'm illustrating with an AA hand from yesterday.

EP raiser is a pretty fearsome reg. He is a 2+2 er who plays 17/15, and is a much better player than I am. I would probably flat him anyway, because he has a high fold to 3 bet, won't stack off reliably with KK as an overpair anyway, is quite capable of reading my hand and tendencies, and it is just really, really bad luck for me to be dealt AA against him, because I am destined to win a small pot or lose a big one.

The button is hyper aggro in terms of 3 betting. In a 58 hand sample, he is playing 24/16/3.1, with a 7.1% 3 bet. His 3 bet from the button is 50%. Guy thought he owned the table, imo.

I was very confident that he would 3 bet, as he had done so in this exact situation.

Full Tilt Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $203.90
UTG+1: $100.00
UTG+2: $116.95
MP1: $93.00
MP2: $200.00
Hero (CO): $209.10
BTN: $169.80
SB: $247.35
BB: $134.65

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is CO with A A
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $3.50, 3 folds, Hero calls $3.50, BTN raises to $10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $30, BTN calls $20

The one thing you have to realize when you make this play is that there is no bad outcome. If he folds to your 4 bet, you win an above average size pot, and avoid having to play the hand out of position. If he calls, the stack to pot ratio is absurdly low, and you only need two streets to get stacks in.

Flop: ($65.00) 2 6 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

This flop is almost too good. It is so ridiculously safe that I decided to try and represent whiffed AK, or somebody who tried a fancy play and got burned by his preflop call.

Turn: ($65.00) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $35.00, BTN calls $35

Meh, time to start building a pot. This was the smallest bet I could make that would set up a reasonably sized river shove. I actually tanked a bit while doing the math figuring out the smallest bet size I could make.

River: ($135.00) J (2 players)
Hero bets $135.00, BTN folds

His fold made me laugh, but maybe he soul read me with KK (lol, not)

Final Pot: $135.00
Hero wins $132.00
(Rake: $3.00)

Not the best example, and I was disappointed not to get his stack. But this hand turned out much better than if I had 3 bet the EP raiser. That induces a fold from the button, and probably a fold from EP, too, who, after all, folded to the squeeze.

I've been second guessing myself on the post flop play, so if anybody wants to criticize me on that, you won't get much of an argument.

nice hand. I would consider a small donk bet OTF to induce a bluff-raise if he has nothing/build the pot if he has a weaked overpair. Maybe around 1/3 of the pot. what do you think? and laugh if he folds to that:-)

I guess you flatted as the villain would be extremely likely to fold to a 4-bet, right? so the takeaway, you flat light squeezes and 4bet "real" 3bets?

Excellent post, MP!

this makes it sound like you misread the preflop action. I four bet the aggro villain who squeezed from the button.

oooh, you are right! sorry.... i guess I looked at your line post flop, and it seemed like a line I would take if I had flatted the 3bet.

I guess I would bet the flop. I mean, if smb 4 bet me after calling pre and then checked, this would look like a very strong line to me.... actually, any time smb 3- or 4bets and then does not cbet, it is very strong, is it not?

Can't we squeeze an extra 10bb's or so from him on the turn for the times he does fold the river? Also, wouldn't a slightly larger bet induce more "lol pot odds, I call" river calls?

I get the feeling that this may not be the type of villain that will distinguish/care/notice the difference between a $35 turn bet and a $45-$50 turn bet.

Don't you think he is more likely to call a turn shove than a river shove if you run the same play except on the flop/turn instead of turn/river ?

maq and pele: good questions, I don't claim to have the answers.

On the turn bet sizing, $35 looked more like a 1/2 pot weak bet. $40 starts to look like a standard 2/3. so I dunno. That was my thinking, I don't claim it was even good, let alone optimal.

Just to add to what you were saying to us micro-micro stake players, mptehy.

For 5NL and 181k hands.

81 times KK's aipf. 619BB/100 winrate.27 times against AA.