im in love

Nice post mpethy! I was just going over all my AA and KK hands last night looking for better ways to play them so this was very timely for me. I'm a low volume player (~21k hands in my db) so it didn't take long to check them all. I ran KK into AA almost twice as often as %'ages would indicate (I think, how often will villain have AA when we have KK, 1 in 27 roughly at FR?), and villains never had KK when I had AA! I am proud to say this year I joined venice in the "folded KK PF" club once this year under somewhat similar circumstances, the one and only time I've ever folded KK PF. You've given me incentive to go over all my KK hands again checking them against all the information you gave above. nh sir!

Garon

Definitely wanted to quote and +1 this post.

Although I wrote a long post, don't lose sight of this. It is usually a simple hand. 99% of my post dealt with the 10% of the time KK is not a simple hand to play. But playing that 10% optimally is the difference between a good WR and an excellent WR.

You da king.

Nice one sir, I enjoyed reading it.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

(Nice and thorough Matt. gj.)

This was a good read.

The "3bet/ship preflop?" part reminded me of one of the recentish threads. I can't remember who said it but the core was this:

People may 3bet somewhat light, but they do not ship light. Nor do they call off a shipping light. Not in general or without reads. As such it's clear that against unknowns indiscriminately shoving KK preflop will be called off by AA and that's it.

Like mpethy pointed out, it's better to keep villain's range wider than KK+. After all, when we hold KK there are 6 possible combos of AA but only 1 of KK left. The difference between player archetypes is that nits are afraid of running into aces, and good players are afraid of scaring away everything except aces. To an observer, the preflop lines these players take may even look identical.

Hellllz yes!

I would also like to add, TYVM 4 DIS!!!!!!!!!!!!

like a said before,every week is better,
this one specially very usefull.

this post let me understand that Im a fish playing KK,i hope not anymore.

Villian is 15/6/3 over 200, 3bet 1, 3bc 17

I'm actually pretty confortable with this fold. His 3bet stats is only AA and the 5bb open reaks of QQ+. Being 130bb + was another factor.


Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP: $14.35
CO: $10.45
BTN: $9.45
SB: $2.80
Hero (BB): $18.80
UTG: $10.15

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with K K
1 fold, MP raises to $0.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.70, MP raises to $14.35 all in, 1 fold

Final Pot: $3.45
MP wins $3.45
(Rake: $0.00)


The reason for my post though is ... is this still a 3bet PF? I think based on his stats with no reads, I think It's still +EV to do so.

Why do you 3b so big if you fold to a shove ?
Just min-3b IMO.

3bet could have been $1.4-$1.50.

Min 3bet I think is much, much, much (x1000) worse. And OOP, so x100000 again.

A big raise pf is often aces unless you have a read that this is his standard opening. However, it isn't a 100% lock and you can close the betting, so I'd call and play some poker.

Great Post Mpethy.

nice one, tyvm

Very interesting post. The theory in here helps not only KK, but really any overpair. I'll be giving it some thought.

Thanks for this. Over the last 100,000 hands i've been getting killed with KK pre. I was thinking that stars is just out to get me.

KK vs. AA : 22 times
AA vs. KK: 3 times

What you said about indiscriminately shoving KK pre rings true for me.

level?

lol
fwiw a fish is never folding QQ+/AK preflop, and for every combo of AA he has here he has 1 combo of QQ, and there are lots of AK. Playing a ton of hands vrs fish I can tell you how many times they turn up with stuff like pocket 9s or AQo here. Sure he is a super passive player but u dont know if he just lost a big pot or got knocked out of a tournament or whatever to justify spew. this is an absolutely terrible fold

I joined the club.

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP1: $55.05
MP2: $52.50
CO: $27.95
BTN: $56.45
Hero (SB): $50.25
BB: $59.05
UTG: $50.00
UTG+1: $62.30

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with K K
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, 2 folds, CO calls $2, BTN calls $2, Hero raises to $11.50, BB raises to $34, 4 folds

We should print tshirts

lol nice raise sizing
obv a good player

Here's mine ...

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP1: $25.00
MP2: $47.10
CO: $15.00
BTN: $39.15
SB: $12.15
BB: $23.00
Hero (UTG): $25.15
UTG+1: $11.40

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with K K
Hero raises to $1, UTG+1 raises to $1.75, MP1 raises to $4.50, 5 folds, Hero calls $3.50, UTG+1 raises to $11.40 all in, MP1 raises to $25 all in, 1 fold

Flop: ($27.65) Q A Q (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: ($27.65) 7 (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($27.65) J (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $27.65
MP1 mucks K K
UTG+1 shows A A (a full house, Aces full of Queens)
UTG+1 wins $26.30
(Rake: $1.35)


Garon

Overpairs are so much easier to get away from when two people hit their sets on the flop and shove into you:

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $58.15
Hero (UTG): $25.00
UTG+1: $28.15
MP1: $32.35
MP2: $25.50
CO: $26.95
BTN: $19.20
SB: $14.35

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with K K
Hero raises to $0.85, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.85, CO calls $0.85, 2 folds, BB calls $0.60

Flop: ($3.50) 6 T J (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.65, MP2 raises to $9.60, CO folds, BB raises to $41, Hero folds, MP2 calls $15.05 all in

Turn: ($55.45) 2 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($55.45) J (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $55.45
BB shows J J (four of a kind, Jacks)
MP2 shows 6 6 (a full house, Sixes full of Jacks)
BB wins $52.70
(Rake: $2.75)

That de-railed in a hurry.

Maybe we could get back on track???

guys I really don't think these hand brags really contribute much to the discussion. How about limiting any hand posts to those that do?