I am cheating a little bit in this CotW because I am filling in on short notice. If you have been following the FT Regs thread, some of this is going to look familiar.

Playing KK is usually very straightforward. I am not going to spend a lot of time focusing on the standard play, which is to raise preflop, bet the flop, bet the turn and bet the river. But lest there be any doubt, this is the best way to play KK—just go for value on every street where your hand looks like it is probably best.

Instead, I am going to spend some time on a few problem areas with KK. I'm saving the most common one for last, because it is the one that I am still most uncertain about, even after 2MM+ hands. I'm a slow learner, I guess.

I. Playing KK Preflop.

1. Any Position, First In.

Raise.

There's not much more to say on this subject. Just—raise. Whatever your standard raise is, do it.

Because I am a wordy bastard, I will say two more things:

a. When stacks are deep.

3 bet pots wind up having pretty awkward stack to pot ratios for one pair hands. If you raise to $1.75 at NL $50 and get 3 bet to $6, and you elect to just call, there's $12 or $12.75 in the pot and 200bb deep, 94 behind. This yields an SPR of about 7.5, which is right in the middle range where one pair hands are uncomfortable. For this reason, I don't hate the idea of reducing your raise size in deep stacked games. If you raise to $1.50 and get 3 bet by someone who mashes the bet pot button on FTP, you'll get raised to about $5.25 or so. This puts $10.50 or $11 in the pot with $95 behind, and you have a bit more maneuvering room at an SPR of around 9. If you reduce your raise size to $1.25, the 3 bet will be to about $4 and there will be $8 in the pot with $96 behind, yielding an SPR in the neighborhood of 12. Now we are approaching the high SPRs where we have some maneuvering room, and we can find some hero folds when necessary.

When I am at a reg-infested deep stack table, I reduce my raise sizes. I do this because my skill edge is reduced (or gone; plenty of regs are better than I am) and I benefit more from workable SPRs than do the regs who are better than I am. It also has the advantage of allowing me to open a wider range of hands. If I felt like I had a skill advantage over the table, I would welcome the lower SPR that causes the hand to be more difficult to play, simply because my opponents are more likely to make bigger mistakes than I am. So you wouldn't vary your raise size at a table where you saw, for instance, people shipping top pair for 200bb.

b. When effective stacks are <80bb.

Don't get fancy. Just get the money in as expeditiously as possible. Raise and shove over a 3 bet preflop. Don't think about calling and seeing a flop, don't think about folding, just get the money in. If you raise and just get one caller playing an 80bb stack, the SPR will still be in the neighborhood of 12, and you can, in theory, fold your hand facing aggression. But I'm not sure that is best, and I am pretty sure that getting stacks in on all but the worst boards is going to be +EV.

2. Any Position, with Previous Limpers.

Raise bigger than usual. If they are set mining, punish them for doing so. Your dream scenario is that the limpers have a big gap between their VPIP and their PFR, indicating a passive tendency to call. A big gap is any gap where the PFR is less than half the VPIP. I normally try to remember to raise 5bb +1 for each limper in this spot.
3.Early Position and Middle Position, Facing UTG or UTG+1 Raise.

Other than being in the blinds, this is the toughest preflop decision you have with KK. In one sense, it is an easy decision, because you basically have to 3 bet. You have to 3 bet because your hand is likely the best, and flat calling invites high implied odds hands into the pot behind you. But it is a tough decision in another sense, because it is a play we are basically being forced into, rather than choosing to make. Flat calling in this spot is almost always a big mistake.

4. Late Position Facing a Raise.

In the CO, we can consider flatting, but should strongly prefer 3 betting if any of the players behind has a tendency to call, either because he is a solid reg or because he is a loose fish. If there is any significant chance that the button will call behind you, strongly prefer 3 betting.

On the button, we have the flexibility to flat call. When might we do so? In short, when the position and stats of the initial raiser indicate that 3 betting KK is going for thin value.

KK as thin value: Suppose the initial raise is from a solid nitty reg UTG whose overall stats are 11/9 (ahem, sound like anyone we know?). This villain is positionally aware, so his raising range UTG is about 7%. Poker Stove says that the top 7% of hands are 88+, Aqo+ and Ats+, but we know this guy prefers set mining hands, so we change this range to 66+ and AQo+ and Aqs+. Let's assume that he will call our 3 bet with QQ, JJ and some combos of AA and KK. That's less than 1.4% of all hands. We have better than 60% equity against his calling range, but his calling range is only about 1/5 of his raising range, so, 80% of the time, he will fold. Suppose he will 4 bet some combos of AA and some combos of AK (which I will stove as AKs). If he 4 bets AKs and half his AA combos, we only have 37% equity against this range. So we have 60% equity 1.4% of the time (<20% of his raising range he calls with) and we have 37% equity the .5% of hands (<7% of his raising range he 4 bets) and the remainder of the time he folds and we win 3.5bb.

If he calls we have 60% equity. If we assume an average pot size of 100bb, which is pretty huge, we're winning 60% of $25.00 at $50, or $15.00 about 20% of the time.

If we assume that stacks go in when he 4 bets us, we are losing 63% of 100bb , or $31.50 about 5% of the time

We win 5bb every time our 3 bet ends the hand (@75%).

In ten iterations, we win $30 when he calls, we win $18.75 when all fold, and we lose $15.75 when he 4 bets.

Our net profit is $33, or 3.3ptBB/6.6bb/hand.

Those are just very, very, VERY rough equity calcs that ignore a lot of things. For instance, his ranges are easier to play than ours. When he flats with QQ, he is going to lose a smaller pot than he will win, on average, than when he flats with AA. So you should get the point—there is value 3 betting even a nitty UTG raiser, but we are in thinnish value territory, definitely not fat value territory.

At NL $50, the best regs are averaging about 4.5ptBB/9bb/hand with KK. So, in terms of value, 3 betting a nitty reg raising in EP is a below average value play. THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT BAD. It just makes it below average for the best regs at $50.

But now you have to ask yourself: “Self; if I flat call here, can I make, on average, more than 6.6bb/hand, which is sort of my best case scenario if I 3 bet this nit?” I bet your answer is yes. If you flat him , keeping in the parts of his range you beat, you have 71% equity against his total range. Plus, your hand is underrepresented, you have position, and most of the time, his range will be easy to play. An ace on the flop improves 40% of his range—this will be a tough spot for you, but usually will not happen.

A final consideration in deciding whether to 3 bet or call in this scenario is whether one or both of the blinds will call. We don't mind a three way pot so much with KK, but we really don't like a 4 way pot. But if one of the blinds is a drooler, now we have a pretty good situation: the nit is squeezed between the blind and us, so he will tend to play his hand straightforwardly, and we have position in a big pot on a drooler. So when you are looking at the situation, look especially at the big blind, who has more of an incentive to get involved. If he is on the fishy side, consider flatting to induce him into the pot. If both blinds are loose and bad, you should probably go ahead and 3 bet while berating yourself ruthlessly for really bad seat selection.

5. In the Blinds.

You are out of position, and this is a major handicap. You should strongly favor 3 betting. About the only time I consider flatting from the blinds with KK is when I am facing an apparent steal from somebody with a wide stealing range and a very high fold to 3 bet stat. In that case, I will sometimes call to keep in that part of his range that I am crushing pretty badly. But, even in this situation, I will usually 3 bet, simply because, in the long run, I need to show down some KK 3 bets against these players so that my 3 betting range against them isn't all junk.


6. Shipping KK Preflop:

In the last few stats analyses I have done for people where I checked this stat, EVERYBODY has been negative AIPF with KK. All of them have been indiscriminately shipping KK. I just did a stat review Saturday for a well known solid reg at $100. That player was playing a very aggressive preflop game. The player was shipping AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK a lot and AQ and TT a fair amount, as well as other random stuff on occasion, and equity adjusted, was losing $$ shipping all of it against full stackers except, of course, for AA.

Go through your database and look at what people are getting all in with. unless there is an unusual situation, full-stacked people are only shoving AA and KK--this is true even for the 72/41 droolers.

So is our job to simply stop shipping KK preflop? NO! Our job is to create unusual situations where we can ship KK preflop and be perceived to be lighter. Shipping with KK is fine, provided that we are 4 betting a reasonable range. The leak most people have is not that they indiscriminately ship KK preflop, it is that they are not 4 betting a wide enough range. Calling a 5 bet shove with KK is only going to be +EV if you can convince some of the people some of the time that you can 4 bet light. Otherwise you are going to be looking at AA most of the time.

Look, even a drooler can see that you only have AA or KK when you 4 bet. What you have to show the drooler is that you will 4 bet/fold, or 4 bet/call lighter than that. The drooler is not good enough to realize that you are carefully picking your spots. He will make too broad generalizations about your play. So, for example, if you are OTB and there is a crazy aggro 3 bettor in the blinds (say a 6% 3 bet stat) and you steal, the 3 bettor 3 bets, and you 4 bet, there is no bad result for you when you think about how the drooler will view that hand. If you 4 bet fold, say, 77, the drooler will look at that hand and say, “lol, the button was making a stand and then chickened out.” Or something like that. So the next time he raises, and you 3 bet him, he will think, “hah, this is the guy that folds to 4 bets.” Or if you 5 bet ship on the aggro guy with A7s, AK or JJ and it goes to showdown, the drooler will see that hand and think, “wow, this guy ships light,” and the next time you 3 bet him, he will be more likely to get it in preflop.

So you need to be constantly manipulating your image at the table. If you have been card dead, and a nit raises from UTG and you 3 bet and he 4 bets you, his range is significantly narrower than it is when he 4 bets if you have 3 bet somebody on each of the last three orbits. You have to keep your image uppermost in your mind.

7. So, Should I fold KK Preflop?

Not ordinarily. There are spots where it is ok, but I am not a fan of folding KK preflop. If you find yourself thinking about folding, you have almost certainly misplayed the hand.

What do I mean by that? Well, suppose that the 11/9 UTG raiser described above raises, you 3 bet, and he 4 bets you. Now you think, “oh ****, he does have AA after all.” And you are tempted to make a hero fold. Is folding a mistake? Maybe it is maybe it isn't, but if you are tempted to fold here, then you should have flatted him. Your mistake was not creating a situation where he could be 4 betting light.

There are spots where you can have played the hand properly and find a fold, but they are very rare. Such a spot might be where the 11/9 raises, you 3 bet him, you get cold 4 bet and the 11/9 ships. You are simply never good in this spot. OTOH, I don't recall a spot like this happening to me in the last half million hands, so it's not exactly an everyday occurrence, and even if you ship here knowing that someone has AA. It only has a trivial impact on your win rate. So why bother? Just lol, and call for the entertainment value of watching the board run off with AA v. KK v. QQ. (Only about 32.64% serious here).

II. Playing KK Post-flop.

1. Examine the Villain's Tendencies.

There is some overlap (everybody set mines) but, in general, different flop textures hit different villains.

Here is a typical (imo) calling range for a 32/12 with a low 3 bet:

Pocket Pairs: 22-QQ
A high hands: A5o+, A2s+
K high hands: Kto+, K9s+
Q high hands: Qto+ Q8s+
J high hands: Jto+, J8s+
Suited connectors: 43s-KQs
Suited One Gappers: 64s+

There are plenty of variations on this—we know there are ace mining loose passives and flush mining loose passives who can't fold, respectively, any ace or any suited two. Please add these descriptions to your notes on extremely loose players, as you need to know which is which.

Here is a typical calling range for a 22/17 LAg with a high 3 bet:

Pocket Pairs: 22-TT, maybe JJ
Suited Connectors: 76s-JTs

You'll see a slightly wider range in multi-way pots, you'll see some ATs, AJ and AQ hands on occasion, but this is basically it.

Tags and Nits are strongly weighted toward 22-TT with occasional suited connectors.

2. Examine the Board Texture.

For our purposes, we are going to create a few categories of boards: Ace high, High connected, low connected, and low rainbows.

a. High connected boards—example is QdJd6h figures are our equity/his equity

Loose Passive: 78/21

Lag: 83/16

Tag/nit: 83/16

b. Low connected board—example is 9d7d5h

Loose passive: 78/21, fractionally better off than on the high board.

LAg 70/30

Tag/nit 69/31

c. Low rainbows: Td6h/2c

Loose passive: 83/16

Lag 76/24

tag/nit 74/25

In general, we can see that we are better off against loose passives on low unconnected boards than we are against Lags and Tags. The more connected the board, either by straight or flush, the more it tends to favor the loose passives. This is a simple reflection of the facts that there are many more suited and connected hands in the ranges of the looser players than there are in the primarily set mining ranges of Lags and Tags.

d.Ace high flops

i. Ad9d4s
Loose passive 58/41

LAg: 71/28

Tag/Nit: 76/24

ii. AdTh9h

Loose passive: 52/47

LAg: 68/31

Tag: 75/25

As we can see, when an ace flops it seriously degrades our equity in relation to how wide the player is calling preflo. Realistically, HU, a Tag or a Nit cold calling us only has some combos of AK or AQs. Depending on our image and position, Tags will 3 bet us with those hands quite often, as will Lags. So mostly we fear aces from people with wide ranges.

Implications of the various ranges: Against lags and Tags, we will find ourselves way ahead or way behind way more often than we are against wide ranges. A Tag or a LAg cold calling a narrow range either flopped a set or he didn't with most of his range. We'll face an occasional combo draw or draw, but, for the most part, it is going to be a wa/wb situation. On dry to semi-dry boards, we can mix up our play against them fairly safely. Unless he gets frisky, we are looking at winning a street or two of value, or potentially losing a big pot to a set.

By contrast, we are usually going to want to bet and keep betting against the loose passive ranges on non-ace high flops. Not only does he have draws we need to charge, he is going to flop lots of second best hands from which we can extract value.

3. Facing Aggression.

If you get raised on the flop, you are in a tough spot. Against the loose passive with an overpair, you need to carefully examine the flop. Is it possible that he has two pair? Remember that there are plenty of one and two gappers in his cold calling range. He could easily have been flush mining you with J8s and flopped J82 for top two—If he did, he will usually raise this big and try to get it in on the flop before his hand gets counterfeited. I see a lot of loose passives go ahead and massively over bet shove this hand. So you have to examine the flop texture.

Loose players will also raise their top pairs and flush draws, however, so you cannot instantly muck your hand. Recall from the equity calcs that we are the favorite against his range, so be inclined to stay in the hand on suited but uncoordinated boards where he was very unlikely to have flopped two pair.
And remember that loose players are also allowed to flop sets. If you play these situations carefully, and fold the worst boards and stay in the hands on the best boards, you should realize a nice profit even when you face a raise. Last time I checked I was winning 11 big blinds per hand when facing a flop raise while holding an unimproved overpair.

Facing a raise from a LAg or Tag on a dry board you are either facing a bluff or a set. If the board is low, there is also the possibility that he has a lower overpair to the board. This is a bad spot to ship, as the hands he will fold are primarily bluffs, and the hands he will call with are primarily sets.

When a Tag or a LAg raises you on a wet board, you are usually facing a semi-bluff combo draw or draw, or a set raising for value on a scary board. It is a tough spot. You can reraise/call or you can flat and then crai on a blank turn. But the main reason that Lags and good Tags are so hard to play against is that they will play their draws and some air the same way they will play a set here, and you wind up paying them off with a lot of their sets.

On an ace high flop, prefer releasing your hand facing aggression from a loose passive player. Yes, you are getting bluffed some of the time. But why make it profitable for him to play his A5o against you? He's going to miss most of the time, don't give him his money back (plus some) when he hits. Similarly, prefer shutting down when they call you on ace high flops where they can't be chasing anything else. You won't be able to barrel them off their ragged ace, so don't try.

4. Playing Past the Flop.

Basically, we should keep betting until we face aggression. This is grossly oversimplifying, but that is the general rule. If the draws get there and a loose passive is calling you down, bet/fold, check/call, or do something to slow down. Remember ALWAYS to examine the cards that come on later streets to see if they hit the loose passive's kicker. This means that there will be lots of cards that potentially meet this description, and you have to be very alert to a loose passive who “comes alive” on later streets and raises you. Remember the Baluga theorem: always reevaluate your Top Pair or overpair when you face a turn raise. Folding to most of them is usually going to be fine.

Don't forget to think carefully about his range on the river. Where he can have hands that can call, you should probably bet, even if he also has a lot of busted draws in his range, too. But where his range is overwhelmingly draws, consider checking to induce a bluff.

5. When the board gets really bad.

Just as an example, when the board has run off AdTh9hQh7s, you are a dog to a loose passive's range.

Don't be a calling station, and prefer folding in tough spots like this. Have a read before you bluff catch.

1st

hahahahahah will read it!

TY for this. I have been trying to figure out better ways to play KK due to the number of times I have run into AA, and while I have been found some, this will definately help.

In your point #7 (flatting to a nitty UTG PFR), isn't the concern here that you might be giving good odds to someone yet to act?

Very nice post. Thanks for making it.

was he doing better with AA as a result of this strategy vs other full stacks AIPF who should often be aware of his image and shipping lighter?

Awesome!

Could one be done on AQ? I hate that hand atm.

There was one done on AK last year. Imagine it should be similar.

Got a 4 hr coaching session in 3 minutes.

I'll answer questions tomorrow or late tonight.

I'm also planning a part III, "non-standard plays" that i will do tomorrow for sure.

I'm always baffled whether to 3ball, flat call or fold them, I imagine it's a bit like AK, but I hate playing AQ in 3bet pots.

cliffs: bet when ever possible?

haha, **** you, yes

Sick, you have no idea how much this question has been buggin me lately. I feel like I've been shipping KK into AA way too often to continue shipping it so lightly PF. I never trust that kind of hunch though since you remember the losses so much more vividly, so it's awesome to see the hard numbers on this.

Thanks for crunching this out, I'm going to to reread it a couple times.

shotty next cotw, playing AA 10bb deep.

don't be sarcastic, everyone knows that's an instafold PF.

One really good cliff note from the Post-Flop section:

Against Tags: fear the set. Against Lags: fear the suited connectors (and sets too of course).

I have one question. How do you play postflop against the set mining tags and nits? He will likely check to you whether he hit his set or not and at this point you are either way ahead or way behind. How do you maximize your value when you're ahead and minimize your losses when you're behind?

Do you lower your bet size since he's probably going to fold or raise you regardless of the size (assuming we don't need to chase off any draws)? Or is that exploitable?

Had it happen to me about a month ago, folded KK and it turned out they both had AA.

TBH, I'm seeing a lot of raises on the flop with air by villains. I asked someone on the forum who put a HH up and did this what the thinking is. However, they haven't responded. I'm guessing that this is weak player's answer to floating. Since they really don't want to make a decision on the turn, they instead hope to end it on the flop before the turn possibly hits, being now aware that most flops miss the PFR.

On its face it seems so simple.

And in most cases it is.

Your understanding and insightful explanation, esp. potential ranges vs. standard villains really helped me to see the WHY.

Thanks for the effort.

I gotta admit I kinda rolled my eyes when I read the topic, since it seemed so simplistic and I was like "oh playing KK, ARRRR IN". But after reading it, it was actually quite informative and very well put together. Solid post! Btw, screw AQ, I want a COTW on JJ.

Ever since I saw that thread i've been spamming these around.

Hahahahaha omg I'm posting that in every JJ hand I see for the rest of my life.

Very nice post, thanks

This COTW has validated so much of how I feel about KK preflop.

One hand that sticks out in my mind was from a few months ago when I played much more tight than I do now. I opened UTG 4x w/JJ and it folds to the button who flats. It's heads up and I fired three streets on a low board without getting all-in. We get to showdown and he tables KK. I was shocked at how he played it thinking why the hell didn't he 3-bet me. It was simple. I played like a tight nit and he knew that if he 3-bet me pre that I only continue with AA/KK and maybe AKs.

After we chatted a bit and he said that he knew I was more likely to fire away with QQ/JJ in that spot. Basically meaning he stood to win more in the long run by keeping me in the hand with a wider range. Pretty much spot on with what this thread has brought out.

great post. the ranges for different players are really helpful

boooooooom