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Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
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Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP

11-26-2021 , 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
Most professional chess players wear suits. Does this mean that it increases their EV? The suit is just a preference, as are RNGs.

There are only two types of opponents that you can face in poker:
- The ones that are exploitable
- The ones that play perfect GTO

Vs the ones that are exploitable, you really shouldn't use RNG as it's burning your EV. You should be exploiting them.
However, vs the ones that play perfect GTO, it doesn't matter what you do. You can randomize in your head or just pick one of the options. The EV is the same either way.

So please explain to me: In what theoretical situation could RNG ever increase our EV if we're the best player at the table?
I think it's reasonable to RNG in spots where villain is exploitable, but you're not sure in which direction. Otherwise you run the risk of accidentally playing a strategy that's bad against villain's strategy.
11-26-2021 , 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
Most professional chess players wear suits. Does this mean that it increases their EV? The suit is just a preference, as are RNGs.

There are only two types of opponents that you can face in poker:
- The ones that are exploitable
- The ones that play perfect GTO

Vs the ones that are exploitable, you really shouldn't use RNG as it's burning your EV. You should be exploiting them.
However, vs the ones that play perfect GTO, it doesn't matter what you do. You can randomize in your head or just pick one of the options. The EV is the same either way.

So please explain to me: In what theoretical situation could RNG ever increase our EV if we're the best player at the table?
Lets say you make really wide call otr vs good reg. What you do next 100 times in same/similar spot?
If he is good he knows you called too much, so you can not continue that wide. So either you play leveling game or you defend correct range. Think second option is better.
This is more relevant in HU or small tough 6-max pools(like HS). On annon sites dose not really matter at all.
11-26-2021 , 09:54 AM
There are also spots where we know how to exploit villain, but going for the max exploit would be way too obvious because villain would start adjusting. So we RNG to moderate the extent of our exploit, and preserve our longterm ev.
11-26-2021 , 10:24 AM
Quote:
Second law of thermodynamics in Physics states that entropy cannot decrease in a system - but it isn't true if we are Laplace's Demon.
I think you mean Maxwell's demon
11-26-2021 , 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2021shipit Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
I think you mean Maxwell's demon
Yeah you're right I knew it was one of those demons. thanks
11-26-2021 , 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haizemberg93 Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
On annon sites dose not really matter at all.
I would think we'd want to RNG more on anon sites?

Since we never have enough data on any one particular opponent to fully exploit them. Yes, we have population data we can use, but that becomes less reliable as the spots become less common.
11-26-2021 , 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haizemberg93 Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
Lets say you make really wide call otr vs good reg. What you do next 100 times in same/similar spot?
If he is good he knows you called too much, so you can not continue that wide. So either you play leveling game or you defend correct range. Think second option is better.
This is more relevant in HU or small tough 6-max pools(like HS). On annon sites dose not really matter at all.
Yes, it becomes a leveling game. But if you’re the best player at the table, you should on average outlevel your opponents. Using RNG is simpler, but not more profitable.

My argument was that RNG can never increase your EV in theory. And it only ever makes sense to use it in small pools, where you play 100k+ hands vs the same opponents who can find imbalances in your game, that even you aren’t aware of. In anon games though, RNG seems just useless. It doesn’t add anything to the strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keuwai Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
I think it's reasonable to RNG in spots where villain is exploitable, but you're not sure in which direction. Otherwise you run the risk of accidentally playing a strategy that's bad against villain's strategy.
You might also accidentaly exploit him. It’s 50/50.
11-26-2021 , 12:12 PM
So at the start of the year I started experimenting with RNG and I would RNG every decision and my studying consisted of grinding wizard sims and trying to memorize frequencies across the game tree. Around summer time I joined a CFP that uses a heavy exploitative and pure (little to no mixing) strategy. Since joining I stopped RNG and adopted the system and my winrate has doubled and my RL is no longer losing massively. My ability to grind longer has also increased since I'm not using so much brain power to RNG and tiring myself out by complicating simple decisions.

Now, I have thought about using RNG again in the future but only if I happen to be playing in a smaller pool, think 1knl+ on StarsPA, that has the same cast of regs day in and day out that would catch onto my obvious exploits for example: BBvBTN OOP I XC, then X X, then I bomb river for 200% I'm probably 85% bluffing. So in that case I would RNG different sizes in that spot for both value and bluffs so they can't just pinpoint what I'm doing with a certain sizing. But my opinion is not to waste time on this stuff UNTIL you actually reach high stakes and are in an environment where randomizing is necessary from a strategic standpoint. Our stable has a few 1k+ regs and a few 500nl regs and I'm pretty sure only 1 or 2 use RNG but they understand frequencies like the back of their hand.

tl;dr...I now believe that RNG is not necessary at all and probably a detriment to most players because they are using it wrong to begin with. If you are talented enough to get to stakes where an RNG will become useful, by that time you will have studied the game tree enough to know exactly what to do with a RNG instead of playing a guessing game while playing micro/small stakes and losing EV from the players that make the bulk of our winrate...FISH!
11-26-2021 , 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyPeru Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
So at the start of the year I started experimenting with RNG and I would RNG every decision and my studying consisted of grinding wizard sims and trying to memorize frequencies across the game tree. Around summer time I joined a CFP that uses a heavy exploitative and pure (little to no mixing) strategy. Since joining I stopped RNG and adopted the system and my winrate has doubled and my RL is no longer losing massively. My ability to grind longer has also increased since I'm not using so much brain power to RNG and tiring myself out by complicating simple decisions.

Now, I have thought about using RNG again in the future but only if I happen to be playing in a smaller pool, think 1knl+ on StarsPA, that has the same cast of regs day in and day out that would catch onto my obvious exploits for example: BBvBTN OOP I XC, then X X, then I bomb river for 200% I'm probably 85% bluffing. So in that case I would RNG different sizes in that spot for both value and bluffs so they can't just pinpoint what I'm doing with a certain sizing. But my opinion is not to waste time on this stuff UNTIL you actually reach high stakes and are in an environment where randomizing is necessary from a strategic standpoint. Our stable has a few 1k+ regs and a few 500nl regs and I'm pretty sure only 1 or 2 use RNG but they understand frequencies like the back of their hand.

tl;dr...I now believe that RNG is not necessary at all and probably a detriment to most players because they are using it wrong to begin with. If you are talented enough to get to stakes where an RNG will become useful, by that time you will have studied the game tree enough to know exactly what to do with a RNG instead of playing a guessing game while playing micro/small stakes and losing EV from the players that make the bulk of our winrate...FISH!
What CFP are you in if you don't mind?
11-26-2021 , 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
What CFP are you in if you don't mind?
It's called Nachos Poker. Small tight knit group of guys (but growing). Anyone interested hmu so I can get that 5% referral fee Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
11-26-2021 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyPeru Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
tl;dr...I now believe that RNG is not necessary at all and probably a detriment to most players because they are using it wrong to begin with. If you are talented enough to get to stakes where an RNG will become useful, by that time you will have studied the game tree enough to know exactly what to do with a RNG instead of playing a guessing game while playing micro/small stakes and losing EV from the players that make the bulk of our winrate...FISH!
Excelent summary. Listen to this guy
11-26-2021 , 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
Most professional chess players wear suits. Does this mean that it increases their EV? The suit is just a preference, as are RNGs.

There are only two types of opponents that you can face in poker:
- The ones that are exploitable
- The ones that play perfect GTO

Vs the ones that are exploitable, you really shouldn't use RNG as it's burning your EV. You should be exploiting them.
However, vs the ones that play perfect GTO, it doesn't matter what you do. You can randomize in your head or just pick one of the options. The EV is the same either way.

So please explain to me: In what theoretical situation could RNG ever increase our EV if we're the best player at the table?
You're working under the assumption that each hand in poker is absolutely independent of others, and that's only true in a theoretical framework. In reality, when you're playing strong players, your showdowns and frequencies will inform their future plays.

Even if you're the best player at the table (big assumption), at a certain threshold of skill level, players will be able to exploit certain frequency mistakes by looking at your hud/by using texture dependant assumptions about how you play certain hand classes. RNGing keeps you from involuntarily having easy to spot leaks on some of the most common nodes.

Obviously, this is not very relevant in anon pools

Last edited by aner0; 11-26-2021 at 01:59 PM.
11-26-2021 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aner0 Constructing a reasonable Flop Strategy in the BB vs SB SRP
Excelent summary. Listen to this guy
Thanks. I agreed with most of what you said itt.
11-29-2021 , 07:02 AM
umm where's the question? From what i can see you asked and answered all your own questions. Where you asking for advice or trying to educate. If the later very informative post If the former then yea still informative post

      
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