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Cbet or no? Cbet or no?

01-10-2013 , 11:32 PM
Villain is 21/11 7%3b over 180 hands

Winning Poker Network - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $25.00
BB: $12.18
UTG: $32.35
UTG+1: $26.67
Hero (MP): $22.37
MP+1: $26.42
CO: $26.82
BTN: $25.00

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has Q Q

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, MP+1 calls $0.75, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($1.85, 2 players) J 3 A
Hero bets $1.00, MP+1 calls $1.00

Turn: ($3.85, 2 players) 8
Hero checks, MP+1 bets $2.00, fold

MP+1 wins $3.41

Am I throwing money away cbetting here? I think within his range he is only calling with Ax hands. I think he is too passive to be playing KJ, J10, type hands.

If a cbet is warranted here is the x/f line good OTT?
Cbet or no? Quote
01-10-2013 , 11:42 PM
Where do you get the passive bit from? 21/11 7% 3bet is pretty wide calling range. Could be floating you KT, QT, Jx, any pair. I'd bet turn against this guy and prob c/f river.
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01-10-2013 , 11:45 PM
I don't feel villain is super passive but i feel he's more passive then not. Am I mislead here?

Thanks for the response though!
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01-11-2013 , 01:21 AM
Cbetting flop here is pretty bad yet pretty standard.
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01-11-2013 , 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RebeccaTwigley
Where do you get the passive bit from? 21/11 7% 3bet is pretty wide calling range. Could be floating you KT, QT, Jx, any pair. I'd bet turn against this guy and prob c/f river.
I don't think you know what passive means.
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01-11-2013 , 08:31 AM
nh, I dont see why we shouldn't cbet on flop?

If we check we are giving him the chance to take down the pot with worse hands.

Cbetting allows us to take so much information and also take down the pot in most situations.
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01-11-2013 , 10:31 AM
How does checking allow him to take pot?
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01-11-2013 , 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyPromises
How does checking allow him to take pot?
We check, vilain bets, you play guessing games
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01-11-2013 , 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porthugz
We check, vilain bets, you play guessing games
but what if you're good at guessing?
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01-11-2013 , 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyPromises
Cbetting flop here is pretty bad yet pretty standard.
Before asking I know this will unleash a wall of GTO text, but how is both bad and standard in the same sentence? Is it standard in the sense that people often cbet these flops? Or is it standard as in you'd cbet here close to always? Because cbetting here is not standard at all for me.
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01-11-2013 , 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicham009
Before asking I know this will unleash a wall of GTO text, but how is both bad and standard in the same sentence? Is it standard in the sense that people often cbet these flops? Or is it standard as in you'd cbet here close to always? Because cbetting here is not standard at all for me.
i'm saying that it's standard for most people to c-bet here and i'm also saying that i think it's bad that they do
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01-11-2013 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyPromises
i'm saying that it's standard for most people to c-bet here and i'm also saying that i think it's bad that they do
Good, for once we agree.
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01-11-2013 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyPromises
I don't think you know what passive means.
Passive means villain is calling a lot of pots, not raising a lot, and not attacking a lot of pots.

what would you classify 21/11/ 7% 3bet as?

I agree his 3bet is rather high thought.
Cbet or no? Quote
01-11-2013 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyPromises
but what if you're good at guessing?
I guess that's something I also need to work on, that's just me but I dont like checking these flops after we took the lead pre, now a quick question, What if the Jack were a 9, do we cbet?
Cbet or no? Quote
01-11-2013 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porthugz
I guess that's something I also need to work on, that's just me but I dont like checking these flops after we took the lead pre, now a quick question, What if the Jack were a 9, do we cbet?
nah... you're more or less said that you're betting for information which can occasionally be correct but more times than not is bad reason to be betting. I don't think a 9 changes that really.

Just check-call a street or two and you can check-call down with KK. Or if you think the Villain will go nuts than you can just check all your made hands.
Cbet or no? Quote
01-12-2013 , 10:24 AM
No right or wrong answer here, it all depends on who your villain is.


Against most people, I do not like to bet with QQ here OOP. This is a board where you can get a maximum of 2 full streets of value and most players fold flop when you cbet and often, you are probably beat(with QQ) when he calls your cbet. Seriously, you are turning QQ into a bluff here since you are hoping for a fold. Turning a hand with showdown value into a bluff is really bad.

Some of you may exclaim: "What?! Checking an Ace high board when I am the preflop aggressor?! No Way! If I check call here, I am playing a guessing game!"

Is it really a guessing game? Well, it is if you are a bad hand reader. But how do we hand read in this situation?

1) Have a good idea of villain preflop range. For a 21/11 with 7% 3bets, his calling range includes all 22+, a lot of broadways like QJ+ , suited connectors like 67s+, and Rag aces like A2s+ or A5o+.

2) Identify this villain. Is he capable of bluff? Is he nitty post flop? What does he do when you show weakness?

3) Analyse the flop texture when he bet flop after your check.

(A) If he is an agro player who likes to attack weakness, he is most likely betting his whole preflop range there. Compare the number of hand combos that you beat and those you lose to.

(B) If he is the passive, nitty type, you can make an easy fold, thereby saving you money by not cbetting flop.

You do not have to worry about being exploited by checking A high board becoz you play similarly by checking if you flop set here.
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01-12-2013 , 11:24 AM
so you open from mp1 n mp2 calls you & some of you guys std is to c/call 2-3 streets?.. wtf???

i understand some ppl will try n barrel you off of your hand since its face up but umm alot of villains will have a hand they can just check down rather than have to barrel but whatever

p.s on this dry of a board im c/f turn, if a flush draw was on it though ide c/call turn n decide river
Cbet or no? Quote
01-12-2013 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andnoel
No right or wrong answer here, it all depends on who your villain is.


Against most people, I do not like to bet with QQ here OOP. This is a board where you can get a maximum of 2 full streets of value and most players fold flop when you cbet and often, you are probably beat(with QQ) when he calls your cbet. Seriously, you are turning QQ into a bluff here since you are hoping for a fold. Turning a hand with showdown value into a bluff is really bad.

Some of you may exclaim: "What?! Checking an Ace high board when I am the preflop aggressor?! No Way! If I check call here, I am playing a guessing game!"

Is it really a guessing game? Well, it is if you are a bad hand reader. But how do we hand read in this situation?

1) Have a good idea of villain preflop range. For a 21/11 with 7% 3bets, his calling range includes all 22+, a lot of broadways like QJ+ , suited connectors like 67s+, and Rag aces like A2s+ or A5o+.

2) Identify this villain. Is he capable of bluff? Is he nitty post flop? What does he do when you show weakness?

3) Analyse the flop texture when he bet flop after your check.

(A) If he is an agro player who likes to attack weakness, he is most likely betting his whole preflop range there. Compare the number of hand combos that you beat and those you lose to.

(B) If he is the passive, nitty type, you can make an easy fold, thereby saving you money by not cbetting flop.

You do not have to worry about being exploited by checking A high board becoz you play similarly by checking if you flop set here.
Thank you, a lot of valuable info in here, thanks to EmptyPromises too for clarifying the situation too!
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01-12-2013 , 01:40 PM
Bet flop, bet turn, check river vs loose villains.
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01-12-2013 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sexdotcom
Bet flop, bet turn, check river vs loose villains.
This is my standard line here.

Another line I like vs aggressive players is Check flop, C/R turn.
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01-12-2013 , 03:29 PM
I don't see what's wrong with cbetting AND barreling turn here, like people only call a cbet in position with top pair+...
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01-12-2013 , 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectreXS
I don't see what's wrong with cbetting AND barreling turn here, like people only call a cbet in position with top pair+...
We look at several scenarios here:

1) If you are the villain with pocket pairs 22-TT, how many streets are you willing to call his cbets? I guess at most once right?

2) If you have air, would you seriously float on a AJx flop vs a preflop aggressor? I guess seldom right?

3) If you have QJ, KJ type of middle pair. At most you are calling a max of two barrels?

4) If you have gut shot, at most you are calling 1 barrel and most likely fold turn if no favourable cards arrive on turn?

5) If you have A2-AT, most people would call 2 barrels and fold to huge river bet. Some CS might call all the way.

6) If you have AJ-AK, and sets, two pairs, you are not folding.

As such, we compare the total number of combos for each possible hand range. It is not hard to see that for hands that are willing to call two barrels are only scenario 3, 5 and 6. Of these combos, you are likely beat most of the times.

Thus, the idea that you are double barreling for value is flawed.

On the other hand, since you are only able to get at most 1 street of value, it is much better to simply check flop. This keeps the villain range wide and allowing them to make bluff at flop which you can call.
Cbet or no? Quote
01-12-2013 , 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exothermic
so you open from mp1 n mp2 calls you & some of you guys std is to c/call 2-3 streets?.. wtf???

i understand some ppl will try n barrel you off of your hand since its face up but umm alot of villains will have a hand they can just check down rather than have to barrel but whatever

p.s on this dry of a board im c/f turn, if a flush draw was on it though ide c/call turn n decide river
Nono...

I could be check calling or check folding flop depending on who I am playing. When I check flop, I never have the intention to check call all the way. If I am planning to check call all streets, then bet/folding is better.

And I am certainly not playing my hands face up. My flop check here is a balanced play. No way villain can exploit me. I do the same with two pairs and sets+. Villain can't exploit me by trying to barrel me off here.

As I said, it all depends on how well you can read the villain and then decide on what is the best line to take. If villain is such a bad player, then of course triple barrel is the standard since he dunno how to fold.
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