Anonymous fast fold tables...

Ignition - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 131.12 BB
BB: 99 BB
UTG: 100 BB
Hero (MP): 119.1 BB
CO: 125.6 BB
BTN: 112.04 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 10 BB, Hero raises to 22.5 BB, BB raises to 52 BB, Hero?

In this thread that I started a couple of months ago, it was agreed that we can fold AK to these small 5bets since it is almost always AA:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/6...39/?highlight=

But how far can we take this idea? Can we fold KK to these small 5bets as well? Or is that just too extreme?

In this specific hand, I especially hate that it is BB vs. HJ where people are especially tight.

Thanks for any help!

Never folding.
Always jamming.

Nah. KK in always is ubiquitous and no pro i know of preaches otherwise

Never HU 100BB deep, but multiway you can.

UTG open, SB 3-bet, BB 4-bet, UTG 5-bet, SB can fold KK.

One more example is UTG opens, HJ 3bet, CO-BB 4bets, BTN-BB shoves... both UTG and HJ can fold KK.

100bb in anonymous games I'm probably never folding KK pre for 100bb, even in any of the scenarios above.

Even knowing the players I've only found 1 spot this year to fold KK pre in almost 140k hands played. And that was facing a 6bet 250bb deep vs someone I know is pretty nitty.

KK is the one hand that should never get slow-played in any 100bb scenario, especially if you have the last option to get the money in. Matter of fact solver probably suggests to ship KK MP vs bb 3b at some frequency if I had to guess.

Edit: Solver ships this in bb's face 50% of the time. Along with AKo 60% of the time and AKs 25% of the time.

Yatahay Network - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 223.22 BB
SB: 229.56 BB
Hero (BB): 178.22 BB
UTG: 124.66 BB
MP: 125.36 BB
CO: 76.52 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

fold, MP raises to 2.5 BB, CO calls 2.5 BB, BTN calls 2.5 BB, SB raises to 14.5 BB, Hero raises to 40 BB, MP raises to 67.32 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 174.76 BB, MP calls 58.04 BB and is all-in

Flop: (270.22 BB, 2 players) 2 T 9

Turn: (270.22 BB, 2 players) 7

River: (270.22 BB, 2 players) 9

Hero shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Nines)
(Pre 18%, Flop 9%, Turn 2%)
MP shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Nines)
(Pre 82%, Flop 91%, Turn 98%)
MP wins 264.22 BB

Lmao. My 4bet was on the big side, but I think way too deep with 3bettor to make it smaller in this spot. Either way the min rr AA.

But just goes to show. I'm almost getting 4:1 just putting it in even if he's calling off 100% of the time. Literally the only way I can ever "fold" is if I know actually 100% of the time this guy has aces, or dang near close to it. No way jose.

It's definitely worth reading the earlier thread that I linked in my OP if you haven't already. One excellent poster, newguyhere, said that he has literally never seen anything but aces when people make these small 5bets. Another excellent poster, Haizemberg93, also recommended folding AK to these small 5bets. I then looked through my 300k+ hand database and found that it was always aces. I think folding QQ and AK is a nice exploit against these small 5bets from non-maniacs. I still wonder if we can do it with KK too.

It's obviously horrible in theory to fold KK to these small 5bets, but maybe it is a nice exploit?

Oh, and I have a little surprise coming in the morning when my Ignition hands become downloadable lol.

Check this out:

UTG jams, HJ calls, CO calls, BU... tanks.... calls, SB calls, our BB decision?



Call 23%.

32o has a higher expectation than KK (!)

And J4s is an absolute slam dunk

Yesterday I faced 2 non-allin 5b. Q8s and AQo. If you 4b the **** out of the "3b or fold" strategy guys then fancy plays start happen. GG rush tables.

I think you have to stack off. KK have much better equity vs AA then AK, so you need just a little bit of QQ and AK combos in his range and/or some 5b/folds. It's not super high ev jam by any means but it's better then folding.

Haha, GTO Wizard can output some pretty hilarious nonsense when you intentionally go way outside of GTO. We have to be careful postflop since it's a lot easier to go into solver no man's land. Like if villain donks pot on the flop the way recs love to do, I have found GTO Wizard to be very unreliable.

Were you close to 100 BBs deep? Maybe it is mostly an Ignition thing. But ya, about to post an example of a player doing it without AA.

Thanks Haiz, was very interested to hear your thoughts on this one. It sounds like folding KK may be too extreme of an exploit here. I will probably keep folding AK and QQ though unless I start seeing more surprises.

There's finally a hand in my database where it's not AA! I was fully expecting AA vs. AA, but thanks goodness it was...

Ignition - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 250.76 BB
SB: 110 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 131.4 BB
MP: 102.6 BB
Hero (CO): 104.24 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A A

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, BTN calls 2.5 BB, fold, BB raises to 8 BB, Hero raises to 22.5 BB, fold, BB raises to 40 BB, Hero raises to 104.24 BB and is all-in, BB calls 60 BB and is all-in

Flop: (203 BB, 2 players) 8 Q 6

Turn: (203 BB, 2 players) 4

River: (203 BB, 2 players) 8

BB shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Eights)
(Pre 23%, Flop 9%, Turn 6%)
Hero shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Eights)
(Pre 77%, Flop 91%, Turn 94%)
Hero wins 195 BB

Yeah I mean we just don't run into AA frequently enough on the whole to be folding KK for 100bb ever, and if you start trying to exploit I think in this particular spot, getting a single fold wrong vs a hand that you have crushed makes this way worse.

But it is uncanny how often AA just happens to be the hand these players have with tiny 5bets, in addition to call 4bet check/raise flop lines I would say.