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Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed?

09-24-2010 , 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb514
Yes I think you should fold to huge shoves pre. I think a lot of AK's profit comes getting your opponent to fold AQ and AJ
I think a lot of AAs profit comes from getting people to fold KK and QQ.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 12:51 PM
i succesfully pushed a guy off pocket tens yesterday with my jacks
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 12:56 PM
Great job brian. You got that money without variance.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:10 PM
I think its fine to overplay and get it in with AK at the micros. The thing is you "will" still actually be ahead of their range a lot of the time, and bad players will play worse hands stronger. I see people playing weaker Ax's all the time at 25NL. You gotta be happy getting it in with AK at 100BB.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligic
I think a lot of AAs profit comes from getting people to fold KK and QQ.
Beat me too it.

I am actually winning with AK allin pre. Pretty amazing.

I was a loser with AK allin pre at FTP over a huge sample and it was my default to always 4bet (/call obviously) or 3bet/5bet. But now I just call 3bets with it in postition against nits and TAG's and im winning in that spot too. OOP I usually prefer 4betting though.

I haven't read the whole discussion but 4bet folding AK is ******ed because there are these things called potodds and equity. Just dont 4bet against anyone you feel that has a nutted 5 betting range, ez game.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartlett
Before you 4 bet with AK ask yourself, am I willing to call a shove. If the answer is no, don't 4 bet.
This I don't understand. I'd rather shove and have FE than to call a shove.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:42 PM
When you have idiot 50NL regfish to your immediate right 4 bet/calling it off with 44,AJ against you w/virtually no history just because you 3 bet them a couple of times in the last few minutes then AK becomes even more of a slam dunk stack off than it would normally be.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhelly
This I don't understand. I'd rather shove and have FE than to call a shove.
If you 4bet and his range is AA,KK and AK you have to call because of potodds, and almost nobody has such a tight range.

It brings alot of variance and its only slighty +EV (if thats in fact his range). So if you expect his range to be that tight you can call and keep his weaker 3betting range in and play postflop.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillRC
Is AK an overplayed hand?

While I can see every merit in 4 betting and 5 bet shoving AK, to me it seems very much like a semi bluff. You've got 2 blockers to their calling range, but you don't beat anything that's likely to call you. If you are called then you're 50/50 against QQ and AK, and losing to everything else.

So obviously, if you're the aggressor then your fold equity tips this in your favour. But if you 3 or 4 bet with AK, and then someone shoves over the top, the only thing that you're beating with a call is a bluff, so if you know the guy that's just shoved is only doing so with AA/KK/AK/QQ then what odds do you need to justify the call?

I will often fold AK to huge shoves pre, is this usually the wrong thing to do?

Edit: I guess that QQ falls into a similar category?
When you realize that AK (and QQ) can be either a no-brainer shove or the easiest fold ever, as long as just a flat, your game will improve a lot...
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hating_uni
When you have idiot 50NL regfish to your immediate right 4 bet/calling it off with 44,AJ against you w/virtually no history just because you 3 bet them a couple of times in the last few minutes then AK becomes even more of a slam dunk stack off than it would normally be.
Obviously
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhelly
This I don't understand. I'd rather shove and have FE than to call a shove.
Then don't 4 bet.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 02:04 PM
No.
Yes.
It depends.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 02:10 PM
pretty good example of this guy overplaying AK vs SS who obviously has him beat
level
Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $32.68
UTG: $54.69
CO: $12.54
BTN: $35.23
Hero (SB): $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with 2 3
UTG raises to $1, CO raises to $1.75, 3 folds, UTG raises to $5.25, CO raises to $12.54 all in, UTG calls $7.29

Flop: ($25.43) 3 J 4

Turn: ($25.43) J

River: ($25.43) J

Spoiler:
Final Pot: $25.43
UTG shows Ac Kh (three of a kind, Jacks)
CO shows Ah As (a full house, Jacks full of Aces)
CO wins $24.16
(Rake: $1.27)

Last edited by uncledunkel; 09-24-2010 at 02:23 PM.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 02:11 PM
Dude, thats 50bb deep. level?

Yeah, he minraises pre but all that tells me is that he is a fish.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOONERCAM
in general on the preflop people wont go all in without the goods, the bullets, the pocket rockets, the american airlines

sometimes they might go all in with the cowboys

but calling all in with big slick is bad, because all the sharks expect you to call all in with the big slick. so why would they go all in with the ladies or the hooks and risk a coinflip?

just think about the pokerz buddy.
LMAO!
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 02:22 PM
What about 3bet folding AK? Am I ******ed? Villain is loose-passive (38/12/2 after 110 hands). Should I quit poker? Did he have AQ?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
Hero ($32.25)
BB ($27.34)
UTG ($25.92)
UTG+1 ($25.35)
CO ($23.50)
BTN ($25.68)

Dealt to Hero A K

fold, fold, CO raises to $0.85, fold, Hero raises to $2.75, fold, CO raises to $8.50, fold

CO wins $5.75
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOONERCAM
in general on the preflop people wont go all in without the goods, the bullets, the pocket rockets, the american airlines

sometimes they might go all in with the cowboys

but calling all in with big slick is bad, because all the sharks expect you to call all in with the big slick. so why would they go all in with the ladies or the hooks and risk a coinflip?

just think about the pokerz buddy.
wow.

this thread is turning into a big cluster f**K
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-24-2010 , 02:32 PM
OOO BRIAN, WHERES THIS STRAT POST
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-25-2010 , 05:57 AM
Sorry, my maths was wrong before. So.

If you've 4bet to 25bb, and villain shoves. If their shove range is QQ+ & AK, then you need to call 75bb to win 82bb with AKs and win 76bb with AKo. So it's pretty border line. If you take rake into account then AKo is arguably a fold.

If you're against a player that you somehow know only ever shoves QQ+, then you are throwing away money by calling.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-25-2010 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillRC
Sorry, my maths was wrong before. So.

If you've 4bet to 25bb, and villain shoves. If their shove range is QQ+ & AK, then you need to call 75bb to win 82bb with AKs and win 76bb with AKo. So it's pretty border line. If you take rake into account then AKo is arguably a fold.

If you're against a player that you somehow know only ever shoves QQ+, then you are throwing away money by calling.
I think normally the 4bet would be bigger than 25bb but w/e

In your example we need 37.5% equity and even against just QQ+,AK we have ~39%. I'd need a pretty big reason not to get AK arrrr eeeeen pre 100bbs deep. And you're calling 75bb to win 125bb, I've got no idea where you got 82bb from?

Also the guy who's advocating folding AK 50bbs deep has to be a level right?
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-25-2010 , 01:46 PM
I overplay JJ/QQ preflop becuase everyone one overplays AK preflop.
Kind of like that feeling when the flop comes 258 and the turn is an Ace
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-25-2010 , 01:54 PM
I didn't read the thread until the end but the beginning of the discussion was whether you could fold AK after 4-betting with 100BB.

The answer is yes. Unless you suck at bet-sizing.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-25-2010 , 02:11 PM
this is the worst thread i've ever read
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-25-2010 , 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillRC
Sorry, my maths was wrong before. So.

If you've 4bet to 25bb, and villain shoves. If their shove range is QQ+ & AK, then you need to call 75bb to win 82bb with AKs and win 76bb with AKo. So it's pretty border line. If you take rake into account then AKo is arguably a fold.

If you're against a player that you somehow know only ever shoves QQ+, then you are throwing away money by calling.
Your math is all wrong. In your prev example, you said its 75 to win 135. To calculate the amount of equity you need. its 75/(75+135). So you need 35.7% equity in order to BE. AK vs QQ/AK has 39.59% equity. So even if his 5bet shove range is 100 percent QQ and AK you still have to call. But the reason you also 4bet is to collect the dead money in the middle when he 3bets wide.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote
09-25-2010 , 04:47 PM
Interesting thread.

Sorry to say it must be a new world record in bad advice and plainly wrong thinkings. Not to mention the math!

I spent a lot of time thinking about, and do the math on the 3bet/4bet/5bet game at the micros lately, and my advice to you is to do it yourself if you havent done it already. Whatever you do, don't take the advices in this thread for the truth..

Some gold posts in here too of course, but if you havent done the math yourself it's just no way to tell them apart.

Good luck guys!

Spoiler:
Hint:
(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)
BrianJ
Ligic

Last edited by OLJensa; 09-25-2010 at 04:58 PM.
Calling shoves with AK - Is AK overplayed? Quote

      
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