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(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle (Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle

07-03-2009 , 05:09 AM
I think it can be valuable.
Few remarks :
-The solutions are for the following situation : BTN opens, SB folds, now it's up to BB.
-full optimal solution is difficult for 3players game so we will not know what is optimal button opening range for the time being (not that it matter anyway) I am going to just assume some button range and calculate optimal strategy for this opening range
-open is for 2.5bb which I think is the most popular vs shortstacks I can calculate it for 2bb or 3bb if you wish
-My arbitrary chosen button opening rang is : 22+, A2+, K9+, K8s-K2s, Q9+, Q8s-Q4s, J9+, J8s-J7s, T9, T8s-T7s, 98, 97s-96s, 87, 86s-85s, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s which is 43.6% o hands
-If you want me to calculate optimal push/call solution for different range let me know
-The solution is almost optimal. It's very very close. Button strategy is the best one vs BB's strategy. BB could improve by pushing QToff but it's very very small improvment (not worth rake for sure)

Ok, enough talk. The solutions : (There are EV's of given plays assuming 5$/10$ blinds) :

BB pushes :


BTN calls :


I hope it will be useful for all the people who didn't work out such ranges for themselves.

Take care

Last edited by punter11235; 07-03-2009 at 05:16 AM.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 05:18 AM
Hey man, that is really cool. One question though: arent they pushing a little bit tighter than what you got? What did you base their pushing strat on? On their optimal strategy?
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 05:20 AM
Quote:
On their optimal strategy?
Yes, those are equilibrium solutions for given situation. BB and BTN can't improve if other side don't change their strategy. Every deviation is a mistake for either side. Of course if one side deviate then other can win even more by deviating themselves.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 05:38 AM
How did you come up with the opening ranges?
Let`s say sb is pretty tight, should bt alter his range if he knew exactly which hands bb is shoving.
Good effort in any case.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235
Yes, those are equilibrium solutions for given situation. BB and BTN can't improve if other side don't change their strategy. Every deviation is a mistake for either side. Of course if one side deviate then other can win even more by deviating themselves.
So if I decide to follow this chart exactly, BB will lose EV if he doesnt push by the chart? if BB gets tighter lets say he pushes only PP, and KJ+ and I continue with this opening and calling open/ calling ranges what happens?

Perhaps a dumb question but whatever.. great post!
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 05:52 AM
I push a lot more from BB. Especially if they got less than 20bb. And also if they call 3bets a lot less. Or got a high fold to 3bet. Against that tight a calling range as you have given. PFR 42% and call with 6%. It is like 36-6 or 6-1 or fold to 3bet 85%. That is just push any 2 from BB. Because the fold equity$ are so great. We can an immediately 4bb, while risking getting it in bad with 20bb. And when we do get it bad in, then it is not like we lose 20bb. What actually happens is we get in bad with our range, against their range.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 08:25 AM
punter

can you post how the ranges would look if the button only opens for 2bb?

Thanks
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 08:47 AM
allwind, you seem not to have understood that the 12.85% and 6% aren't the actual calling ranges, just plug those hands in and you'll see it's way more.

Also, good work Punter!
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 08:49 AM
As for MATT, there are no such thing as optimal strategies for multiplayer games. Of course the maximally EXPLOITIVE ranges for btn to open are largely dependant on what sb defends with, but given you can't solve anything like that anyway, I assume punter simply disregarded SB and added his blind as deadmoney and made it a HU-game.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 09:04 AM
i support an (almost) optimal thread for dealing with ssers

and an optimal hu forum by mdma
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 10:23 AM
punter: how much do your charts change (if at all) if it's just HU vs. a SS'er. If the answer is zero, then am I correct that what you've posted is an optimal strategy for beating (or at least breaking even) vs. a SS'er heads-up?
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 10:38 AM
Thanks for the work. Table does not change vs just HU teddy.

btw, these tables are out there for ages, i used them when i was playing sng 3 years ago. If you have the program `sit and go analyzer`, these tables are provided how the ranges changes according to deepeness. Like if the BB has only 5 BB, you can shove like 95% of your range.


A good remark is that both players should be aware of optimal strategy. BB should tighten up when SB is not aware. My experience is that most shortstackers at full ring at least are not pushing in the sb as much as they should do and for that reason, you should tighten your callingrange in the BB.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 11:07 AM
Quote:
How did you come up with the opening ranges?
You mean opening from BTN ? I wrote it's complete arbitrary choice as coming up with "optimal" range is kinda difficult if there are 3 players involved.

Quote:
punter

can you post how the ranges would look if the button only opens for 2bb?

Thanks
I will later.

Quote:
punter: how much do your charts change (if at all) if it's just HU vs. a SS'er. If the answer is zero, then am I correct that what you've posted is an optimal strategy for beating (or at least breaking even) vs. a SS'er heads-up?
Yes, table changes. For HU it's possible to calculate optimal opening/calling ranges for opener and optimal pushing for BB. I will post them later too. Oh and that is all with the assumption that opponent can only push or fold but can't fold. In real poker he can call :-)

Quote:
btw, these tables are out there for ages, i used them when i was playing sng 3 years ago. If you have the program `sit and go analyzer`, these tables are provided how the ranges changes according to deepeness. Like if the BB has only 5 BB, you can shove like 95% of your range.
From what I understand those weren't available and sng programs use approximations instead of exact range (they assume some order, so if 98s is a call then QToff always is a call too which is sometimes not correct).

Quote:
I assume punter simply disregarded SB and added his blind as deadmoney and made it a HU-game.
Yes. Solving 3handed game with raise and reraise is not in (my) menu right now :-)

Last edited by punter11235; 07-03-2009 at 11:18 AM.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235
For HU it's possible to calculate optimal opening/calling ranges for opener and optimal pushing for BB. I will post them later too. Oh and that is all with the assumption that opponent can only push or fold but can't fold. In real poker he can call :-)
Google HU NASH equilibrium for SNGs. Same applies for push/fold in cashgames.

2bb button open chart would be sexy, plz do.

And the mentioned SNG programs adjust for ICM. They're not correct for cashgames afaik.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 11:44 AM
opening 2.5x 43% vs a 20bb shortstack is soo leaky
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
opening 2.5x 43% vs a 20bb shortstack is soo leaky
yeah this is awesome you took the time to do this. def support spreading knowledge on how to give those ratholing pieces of **** hell. but this open range is wayyyy too big vs them imo. although does it really matter? cuz if they adjust their shove range to us then we in turn adjust our call range...hmmm...
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-03-2009 , 12:07 PM
not sure how much credit to give them for adjusting to our open range. are they able to bring up a hud stat to show how often we steal when its specifically them that are in the bb and not just our steal stat in general?
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-14-2009 , 03:28 PM
Thanks Punter!
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-21-2009 , 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235
I think it can be valuable.
Few remarks :
-The solutions are for the following situation : BTN opens, SB folds, now it's up to BB.
-full optimal solution is difficult for 3players game so we will not know what is optimal button opening range for the time being (not that it matter anyway) I am going to just assume some button range and calculate optimal strategy for this opening range
-open is for 2.5bb which I think is the most popular vs shortstacks I can calculate it for 2bb or 3bb if you wish
-My arbitrary chosen button opening rang is : 22+, A2+, K9+, K8s-K2s, Q9+, Q8s-Q4s, J9+, J8s-J7s, T9, T8s-T7s, 98, 97s-96s, 87, 86s-85s, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s which is 43.6% o hands
-If you want me to calculate optimal push/call solution for different range let me know
-The solution is almost optimal. It's very very close. Button strategy is the best one vs BB's strategy. BB could improve by pushing QToff but it's very very small improvment (not worth rake for sure)

Ok, enough talk. The solutions : (There are EV's of given plays assuming 5$/10$ blinds) :

BB pushes :


BTN calls :


I hope it will be useful for all the people who didn't work out such ranges for themselves.

Take care
What marvellous piece of software is this?
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-21-2009 , 10:17 AM
Great job for advocating short stack play and making their lives more easy.

(Just out of curiosity, does this thing accommodate rake? If called, it's 1/5th of big blind in NL1k 3-handed I think on most sites. Unsure though if it makes any difference.)
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-21-2009 , 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDMA
As for MATT, there are no such thing as optimal strategies for multiplayer games. Of course the maximally EXPLOITIVE ranges for btn to open are largely dependant on what sb defends with, but given you can't solve anything like that anyway, I assume punter simply disregarded SB and added his blind as deadmoney and made it a HU-game.
Well, although this is true, I think we can get pretty close in a situation like this. I actually spent a decent amount of time doing this when I was shortstacking a lot more. It is tedious, and you can't get it exact, but you can just keep solving for EV of different open ranges, and assume both blinds know your ranges and push accordingly. The only issue I think with 2.5x raises, and moreso with minraises, is it is very hard to factor in BB call.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-21-2009 , 02:13 PM
Please do this for 2xbb opens, I feel that is the much more common than 2.5 or 3x from SS'ers
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-21-2009 , 02:55 PM
Quote:
Yes, table changes. For HU it's possible to calculate optimal opening/calling ranges for opener and optimal pushing for BB. I will post them later too. Oh and that is all with the assumption that opponent can only push or fold but can't fold. In real poker he can call :-)
It would be amazing if you could post that for 20 bb's effective with 2x button/sb open.
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-21-2009 , 05:19 PM
Can you tell me the name of the software
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote
07-21-2009 , 05:37 PM
pokerazor
(Almost) optimal pushing/calling ranges for 20bb btnvsbb battle Quote

      
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