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Old 07-05-2006, 11:53 AM   #1
sthief09
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AK vs a reraise (concept)

i'm not quite sure how to handle getting reraised when i'm holding AK. part of me feels like i can't fold such a powerful equity hand, but the other realizes that i'll flop a pair 1/3 of the time, and when i do it's unlikely that more than a flop c-bet will go into the pot unless i'm behind.

standard example (we'll assume 5/10 NL with 1000 stacks for simplicity):

we raise to 35 with AKo, SB (21/15 good TAG) makes it 115, BB folds, and we're being offered 2-1 immediate odds

what's the standard play here? if you choose to call or 4-bet, what's the plan postflop?

how does the situation change if:
<ul type="square">[*]we have AKs rather than AKo?[*]the SB is laggier?[*]we are 3-bet by the button?[*]we are UTG rather than the CO?[*]we opened from the SB?[/list]
i obviously know the broad answer to these, but i'm looking for more detailed answers on how to handle these situations.

thanks
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Old 07-05-2006, 11:56 AM   #2
krishan
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Thank god. I've been waiting for this one. Thanks Josh.

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Old 07-05-2006, 12:33 PM   #3
dust bustah
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

josh,

not very detailed response:

I usually fold, both suited and offsuit. if villain is 3betting light I'll call for domination value, and typically c/f flop unimproved.

in a blind battle, it's obviously tremendounsly image dependent, but typically I call, because lots of people like to reraise decent aces if I've been pushing them around.
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Old 07-05-2006, 12:54 PM   #4
JKratzer
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

in general i'd call with position and fold oop. also i'm more likely to fold if it's offsuit. when i do call and make tptk i would call the c-bet (or bet myself if checked to). turn action is going to be board/player dependent but generally i treat my hand as being good unless villian does something that really makes me think he's got aa/kk (or something else that now beats me).

tough decisions i agree, i think it helps a lot to be in position and also to call reraises with a wider range of hands, so villian has a more difficult time putting you on ak. if you do it with other hands too then folding just because an a/k flops is going to make them fold the best hand too often. of course if they're not good enough to notice that stuff then don't do it.

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Old 07-05-2006, 12:58 PM   #5
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Muck is standard except against lagtards.
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Old 07-05-2006, 01:06 PM   #6
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

What you do with AK here is dependent of what you do with other hands. What do you do with 78s here? What do you do with TT? The answer to those questions should often have a large impact on what to do with AK here.

As previously stated, I will often call with position. If villian has been reraising me light (and is laggy) I will four-bet to 450ish often, and usually call a push. My VPIP/PFR is pretty high, so I get reraised often. A lot of aggressive players will notice this and r/r me light (99-AJ and better, I'd imagine [maybe some trash hands too]). Anyways, I will often just take a flop from position. If the raise is less than 10% of my stack, I'll usually take it with any two I would raise with (except face-card-face-card hands and hands that could be potentially dominated). From oop, I just lay it down like a girl. In order to play like this profitably, you have to play well post flop and be willing to get your money in on a lot of draws with FE, and bluff at times too.

As for AKs, I treat it entirely differently. I never fold AKs. Never. It is too good. You can make flushes. You can make straights. You can make high pairs. It is statistically the least likely hand to get in Hold'em. .. OK so I fold it SOMETIMES. But rarely. I will play it stronger, yes, and four-bet with it more often. There isn't really any detail to this, just that it looks very pretty and it widens my four-bet range.
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Old 07-05-2006, 01:06 PM   #7
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

I really hate this situation too, as i don't see 4betting being a great response because if pushed you are probably a dog and if called... you are probably a dog, and you miss 2/3. That said, the implied odds (nonexistant vs a worse hand, beyond a cbet) aren't there for a call, but I usually do it anyway and fold or win a small pot or lose a big pot postflop.
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Old 07-05-2006, 01:47 PM   #8
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

I think people are being really silly saying they will defend in position but fold OOP. The value of position isn't very significant in this spot unless opponent is super predictable. Also, villain will be more likely to reraise junk in position. If you defend and c/f when you miss, you will lose money against players who will continuation bet almost any flop. You need to bluff Q72 type flops once in a while.
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Old 07-05-2006, 02:19 PM   #9
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Vs a tight RRer, fold is def standard.

Bad odds to hit, bad implied odds, bad reverse implied odds -&gt; Fold.

Against somebody with a wider range, I mix it up between calling and 4-betting, and rarely, but still occationally, folding. I'm typically more inclined to 4-bet OOP, since you're usually fcked and can't take a free card if you miss.

Against somebody who RRs a bit light, you actually might have good implied odds with it when you both pair up vs his AQ/KQ or whatever.

It's pretty tough to fold TPGK in a RRed pot.
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Old 07-05-2006, 03:02 PM   #10
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
Vs a tight RRer, fold is def standard.

Bad odds to hit, bad implied odds, bad reverse implied odds -&gt; Fold.

Against somebody with a wider range, I mix it up between calling and 4-betting, and rarely, but still occationally, folding. I'm typically more inclined to 4-bet OOP, since you're usually fcked and can't take a free card if you miss.

Against somebody who RRs a bit light, you actually might have good implied odds with it when you both pair up vs his AQ/KQ or whatever.

It's pretty tough to fold TPGK in a RRed pot.
It seems like pushing would have a higher EV than calling and hoping to hit a flop against someone who you think has a wider range. Do you ever push?

Krishan
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Old 07-05-2006, 03:36 PM   #11
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

I pretty much never fold AK to a 3bet unless its from a real tight raiser. Almost all the 3/6 regs are 3betting pretty light and it's more whether I want to call or 4bet. Like BJ said, 4betting more OOP and calling more in position.

Problems is a lot of TAGs i think view 4bet as always being AK and will convince themselves and push 99+ which sucks because you have to end up calling. I really need to work on this too bc i stack off wayyyy to often.

Usually it's when I rr though and get called down and I push turn on low board. I tinhk folding sucks but you have to really play well postflop and not be a spew monkey like myself. Everyone's calling range is pretty damn wide too.

Villain here is 17/11, standard tight TAG.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($1195.30)
Hero ($600)
UTG ($270.19)
MP ($271.05)
CO ($650)
Button ($701.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K. SB posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls $6, MP calls $6, 1 fold, Button raises to $33, 1 fold, Hero raises to $84, UTG folds, MP folds, Button calls $57.

Flop: ($195) 9, 5, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $150, Button calls $150.

Turn: ($495) 9 (2 players)
Hero calls $360 (All-In), Button calls $360.

River: ($1215) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $1215

Results in white below:
Hero has Ah Kc (two pair, nines and fives).
Button has Td 9d (full house, nines full of fives).
Outcome: Button wins $1215.
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Old 07-05-2006, 03:52 PM   #12
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
It seems like pushing would have a higher EV than calling and hoping to hit a flop against someone who you think has a wider range. Do you ever push?

Krishan

good question
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:05 PM   #13
dust bustah
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

i'd often push if he was shortish... i'm almost never pushing with full stacks without a read that makes this whole question meaningless
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:08 PM   #14
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Generally, fold. If he's rr'ing light then maybe 4-bet, maybe call and push the flop over his c-bet.
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:10 PM   #15
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
i'd often push if he was shortish... i'm almost never pushing with full stacks without a read that makes this whole question meaningless
Basically my thoughts.

I have made the push a few times, with a read, though.
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:11 PM   #16
krishan
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
Quote:
i'd often push if he was shortish... i'm almost never pushing with full stacks without a read that makes this whole question meaningless
Basically my thoughts.

I have made the push a few times, with a read, though.
What is the read? 22-AA, AJs+?

That he would lay down QQ?

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Old 07-05-2006, 04:13 PM   #17
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
i'd often push if he was shortish... i'm almost never pushing with full stacks without a read that makes this whole question meaningless
Basically my thoughts.

I have made the push a few times, with a read, though.
What is the read? 22-AA, AJs+?

That he would lay down QQ?

Krishan
These, and whether or not I think he might call with a worse hand.
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:13 PM   #18
TheWorstPlayer
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

That he's a donkey.
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:17 PM   #19
krishan
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
Quote:


What is the read? 22-AA, AJs+?

That he would lay down QQ?

Krishan
These, and whether or not I think he might call with a worse hand.
By worse hand you mean an unpaired hand weaker than AK? I don't think I've ever had that read on someone. I'm sure there out there though.

Krishan
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:18 PM   #20
dust bustah
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
whether or not I think he might call with a worse hand.
i.e. AQ
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:20 PM   #21
TheWorstPlayer
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

ie T7
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:30 PM   #22
TheWorstPlayer
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
Quote:
whether or not I think he might call with a worse hand.
i.e. AQ
Yup, some clowns just can't fold the big aces.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

TWP ($644)
Button ($786.50)
SB ($1220.50)
BB ($383.87)
UTG ($608)
MP ($1739.35)

Preflop: TWP is CO with A, Q. SB posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, TWP raises to $25, Button raises to $84, 2 folds, TWP raises to $225, Button calls $702.50 (All-In), TWP calls $419 (All-In).

Flop: ($1439.50) J, T, 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($1439.50) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($1439.50) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $1439.50

TWP has Ah Qd (high card, ace).
Button has As Jh (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Button wins $1430.50.
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:31 PM   #23
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

hahah
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:40 PM   #24
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

Quote:
Quote:
whether or not I think he might call with a worse hand.
i.e. AQ
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $6 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool

TWP ($633)
UTG ($594)
MP ($106)
BJ ($739)
Button ($734.80)
SB ($549)

Preflop: BJ is CO with KK. SB posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls $6, MP calls $6, BJ raises to $36, Button calls $36, SB (poster) calls $33, TWP raises to $175, 2 Folds, BJ Raises to $739 (All-in), 2 Folds, TWP Calls $458 (All-In).


Flop: blah blah blah
Turn: blah
River A

TWP wins with AQss
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:43 PM   #25
TheWorstPlayer
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Re: AK vs a reraise (concept)

yeah, gave you too much credit. oh well, i told you donkeys can't lay down big aces.
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