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AK 200BB deep AK 200BB deep

07-23-2014 , 10:42 PM
NL50

200BB stacks effective.

Villian has been losing and a little tilted - I've won about 4 buy ins off him but he managed to win 1 back so now we are 200BB effective.

It is on bovada so I have no hud but Villian 3bets at least 10 - 15% of the time. Not a crazy amount but enough that i've seen him 3bet with hands like a4 but since he has been deep i haven't seen him 3bet as much.


I'm in SB and raise to $1.5 with AK
He 3 bets to $5.5
I'm putting him on a tighter range since he hasn't 3bet me in the last 20 hands since he has been around $80. I think he is 3betting less the deeper he gets.

I was contemplating 4betting but figured this hand would be pretty hard to play deep.

Any merit in just flatting this 3bet?
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-26-2014 , 06:20 AM
Are we ahead of his 3 betting range? Very likely, meaning we should 4bet. But are we ahead of his 5-betting range if he shoves? You need to 4-bet with a plan of what you're going to do if he ships it.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-26-2014 , 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans
I was contemplating 4betting but figured this hand would be pretty hard to play deep.
The sequence "H 4b, V call" creates a ~3:1 stack-to-pot ratio. That is not deep.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-26-2014 , 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAWhatALyfe
Are we ahead of his 3 betting range? Very likely, meaning we should 4bet. But are we ahead of his 5-betting range if he shoves? You need to 4-bet with a plan of what you're going to do if he ships it.
depends - he stopped 3betting light when he got deep and I have position.

If I get 5bet i'm probably against QQ+ as I doubt he would 5bet AQ given how tight he got once stacks got deeper.

Maybe 4bet to $12.5 and fold to a 5bet? I just hate 4bet folding AK which is why I elect to just call
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-26-2014 , 05:26 PM
Why do you hate 4 bet folding AK? Remember why we are 4 betting to begin with - we are ahead of his 3 BETTING range. It doesn't mean we are ahead of his 5 betting shove range.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-26-2014 , 05:29 PM
You seen way to concerned about his last 20 hands. That is such a small sample, you can't assume he has tightened up his ranges at all.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-27-2014 , 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arobinson11
You seen way to concerned about his last 20 hands. That is such a small sample, you can't assume he has tightened up his ranges at all.
well this is kind of a spoiler but any ways he ended up having AA.

I lost pretty much the minimum and ended up stacking him 20 hands later because I kept my giant stack.

I basically called and the flop was

TT9

He checked - I bet 2/3rds pot as I felt I was ahead of his range

He called.

Turn was a 2 I bet 1/2 pot he calls

River was check check and he had AA


I like how I played it based on his actual hand - but in retrospect I was unsure of how I should of played it. I lost like $20-$22 or so instead of $12.5 if I 4bet folded because I think 4bet fold was the best play.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-27-2014 , 06:37 AM
Don't know how you think you lost the minimum because post flop you just lit money on fire. TT9 flop and he checks as the pre-flop aggressor. Either he is pot controlling/ trapping or occasionally just giving up with some air. Betting basically just gets him to fold out his equity with air (and we don't need to bet so big for that) or just gets him to call his pot controlling hands (most of them ahead of us except some worse A highs) or gets him value with his trap hands.

Turn bet followed by river check is even worse. He has no air now so basically we're trying to bluff him off something he's pot controlled - but we have worse hands than the nut A high that we can do that with. And he's probably calling at least one more especially just a 1/2 pot so betting then giving up OTR just doesn't make sense.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-27-2014 , 08:12 AM
Hey I was villain, I remember this hand

gg. Do you remember our last hand where I 3 barrel A9JA6 board.. I'm curious if you would have folded river if you didn't improve.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-27-2014 , 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naymlis
Hey I was villain, I remember this hand

gg. Do you remember our last hand where I 3 barrel A9JA6 board.. I'm curious if you would have folded river if you didn't improve.
ya that was our last hand - it would of been hard to call river with out the 6. I got lucky there.

I'm not sure if I would of folded trips though, although I have in the past. Hitting the 6 made the call pretty easy though.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-27-2014 , 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic
Don't know how you think you lost the minimum because post flop you just lit money on fire. TT9 flop and he checks as the pre-flop aggressor. Either he is pot controlling/ trapping or occasionally just giving up with some air. Betting basically just gets him to fold out his equity with air (and we don't need to bet so big for that) or just gets him to call his pot controlling hands (most of them ahead of us except some worse A highs) or gets him value with his trap hands.

Turn bet followed by river check is even worse. He has no air now so basically we're trying to bluff him off something he's pot controlled - but we have worse hands than the nut A high that we can do that with. And he's probably calling at least one more especially just a 1/2 pot so betting then giving up OTR just doesn't make sense.
The flop bet was to get him to fold out his air - maybe didn't need to bet so high - but I figured I had 6 outs if called and didn't know I was drawing so thin. The turn bet was pretty bad as I should just gave up after betting flop.

But half the time after someone 3bets and checks flop they give up or call one bet and give up on the turn. So that was my goal this hand. To get him to fold out some pocket 8 or lower hand or maybe a 9x.
AK 200BB deep Quote
07-28-2014 , 01:10 AM
well if he is 3-betting less now that you are deep, I would auto assume that his range here will be towards the top. You have way too strong a hand to fold, But I also wont like 4-betting here because if we are then 5-bet, its a pretty ugly spot against someone that just turned nit.
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08-03-2014 , 04:16 AM
Just my 2 pennies: I'm simply reading the HUNL forums here as I'm slowly getting into heads up cash and sng's to supplement my 6 max game. I'm still in the infant stages of learning here so I read and study heads up a lot more than I play it...although I do wind up heads up at a 6 max table quite often but that's entirely different and I know it.

The first thing is that this thread, and you guys discussing the thought process of it, provided me with a great learning opportunity. I can tell that we're talking about two pretty solid or very good players here so I guess that's why the thread grabbed my interest in the first place.

The other thing is that I find it really cool that villain would actually show up in the thread lol. Two 2p2'ers going heads up like that must have been really tank evoking for them during the game.
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08-04-2014 , 12:41 AM
I think just calling AK is the optimal play here considering your perception of his stack off range. It keeps your calling range balanced so that you can own AQ, AJ, and KQ. Most small stake villains over adjust once they see you flat w/ AK by 3betting a super polarized range of AK, JJ+, and junk. They are now scared to value raise hands like AQ. If they do this, you can now begin to 4bet really light if they keep a relatively high 3bet frequency. The more passive players will stop 3betting light and you can dominate your button.
AK 200BB deep Quote
08-04-2014 , 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbank
I think just calling AK is the optimal play here considering your perception of his stack off range. It keeps your calling range balanced so that you can own AQ, AJ, and KQ. Most small stake villains over adjust once they see you flat w/ AK by 3betting a super polarized range of AK, JJ+, and junk. They are now scared to value raise hands like AQ. If they do this, you can now begin to 4bet really light if they keep a relatively high 3bet frequency. The more passive players will stop 3betting light and you can dominate your button.
We would like to know more about his flatting range. If he calls too frequently AK could be a mandatory 4 bet. Also if his 5 bet range is actually QQ+ (I doubt it is given whats been posted so far although OP didn't have access to all of this at decision time), that is not a valid reason to prefer flatting, on the contrary villain is providing us with a great deal of information and we will be able to play IP very well against his range when he takes that line.
AK 200BB deep Quote
08-04-2014 , 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CashGrinder
Just my 2 pennies: I'm simply reading the HUNL forums here as I'm slowly getting into heads up cash and sng's to supplement my 6 max game. I'm still in the infant stages of learning here so I read and study heads up a lot more than I play it...although I do wind up heads up at a 6 max table quite often but that's entirely different and I know it.

The first thing is that this thread, and you guys discussing the thought process of it, provided me with a great learning opportunity. I can tell that we're talking about two pretty solid or very good players here so I guess that's why the thread grabbed my interest in the first place.

The other thing is that I find it really cool that villain would actually show up in the thread lol. Two 2p2'ers going heads up like that must have been really tank evoking for them during the game.
HU is pretty good if you can sit with bad players but it can get frustrating if you are against decent players and it's low stakes as the rake really starts to hurt after a while. It's almost no point to play a reg heads up at low stakes because the rake will win most of the $$$

a good player can very easily become a bad player though if you can tilt them. So it always pays to play with them for a bit and if you start winning they can start dumping stacks to you. Probably a good idea to quit though if they ether don't tilt or are up 2 buy ins.

Something I need to work on is quitting when I get too deep in the hole as players usually play better when they are up
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08-08-2014 , 02:24 PM
btw you weren't up 4 buyins and I was not tilted
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