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Old 07-18-2008, 05:11 AM   #1
Shove
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50NL: AQo

Texas Hold'em NL50 (5 handed)
[SIZE=10]Hand converter used for this poker hand: Ongame Hand Converter v0.2.7 by Life is a Bug.[/SIZE]

MP: $70.13 (27/16/2.0)
CO: $56.70 (52/12/2.0)
BU: $43.48 (30/8/1.7)
Hero: $59.07

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, Q
MP raises to $1.75, CO calls $1.75, BU calls $1.75, SB folds, Hero calls $1.25.

Flop: ($7.25) A, J, 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $5.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $17.00, MP raises to $68.38 (All-in), Hero calls $40.32 (All-in).

Turn: ($132.95) 2 (2 players)


River: ($132.95) 7 (2 players)


Final Pot: $132.95

Nh?
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:22 AM   #2
Dichon
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Re: 50NL: AQo

i think you can raise preflop to avoird playing this hand against alot of players. You haven't got position too, that indicates you must raise i think (good situation for squeeze play).
But the way you played the hand, i didn't call the all in raise on the flop because in most cases you re beat or you are a slight favorite (only against a semi bluff with staright and flush draw combined)
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:07 AM   #3
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Re: 50NL: AQo

I prob. squeeze pf!
As played I fold to a shove, if he's unknown. I think your either versus a set, 2pair or a monsterdraw!
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:08 AM   #4
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Re: 50NL: AQo

3bet PF looks good, you can fold if MP shoves, and CO/BTN likely have weak hands. MP's opening range should be wide enough.

As played I would fold to his 3bet on the flop. He cbet in 4-way pot, so that should means he doesn't have air. As Dichon said, vs his 3betting range you're way behind or flipping. More likely way behind vs AK,AJ,AA,JJ,99.

I don't like the flop c/r. There are no worse hands that can call, better hands and strong draws are 3-betting, and there are not many weak draw or weaker made hands you need to protect from.

As default, I c/c here. Donk betting could be a valid option.
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:44 AM   #5
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Re: 50NL: AQo

I don't like to squeeze with a valuehand here when I fold against a shove. As fee said:"Never ever squeeze with AQ/JJ/TT unless you are willing to call a shove.

With fold to shove on the flop I agree but I think the c/r is fine because I have to protect and there are enough worse hands calling.
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:55 AM   #6
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Re: 50NL: AQo

I don't really like the c/r on the flop because after it you are to committed to playing for stacks with a hand that has very little showdown value against either his calling or shoving range. You only fold out the hands that you beat. I prefer to call the flop c-bet since you only beat A10 and worse. If he fires on a blank turn I might let it go depending on villains tendencies. You also have a queen blocker. You might also be albe to get a little value out of KK,QQ type hands.
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Old 07-18-2008, 07:16 AM   #7
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Re: 50NL: AQo

AQ is a very good squeezing hand, def you should had 3bet preflop and you dont have to think that you will call a shove with, you can easy mucked it.

This flop is bad for your hand, and he could have AJ/A9/AK, what do you expect to beat? only AT and his range is stronger then AT after the push.
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Old 07-18-2008, 08:05 AM   #8
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Re: 50NL: AQo

It's tough, as fees said, 3betting and folding to a shove is not a very good play with hand as strong as AQo. Say we squeeze to $8.25, MP shoves and the other two fold, the pot will be $70 and you'll have to call off $50. That's about 1:1.4 pot odds and you'd need 40% equity vs. his 4bet shove range which I don't think we would have that great equity here, unless we have a read on villain/history with him that he would suspect us to squeeze light/good stats on him 4betting.

So I would think that just calling is okay here, since we are not folding and 3bet/fold is not a good option imo. If we c/r here, after our call of his cbet the pot will be $18.25 and we'll have about $52 left of effective stack. If we c/r him $12 more and he shoves the pot will be $42 and we'll need to call $40. If we're good +33% of the time here, then a call would be +EV.

But playing these numbers without a solid read of how villain will play certain hands is just guessing. Is he likely to shove A6s or can he fold it? If he folds some aces and shoves other, what aces is he folding and what of them is he shoving. Since it's a wet board, some will think that your range contains a lot of draws and are willing to go broke with top pair no kicker. Other will just play rock tight and fold.

With that said, I like a call here. C/r and a shove from villain will leave us guessing. On the turn we will have 2PSB left, so there is some room to play pot control here. On a blank turn I think we can go for a c/r. He will fire most weaker aces to protect from the draws that are out there. He might also get aggro and fire with som sort of draw which we will c/r him off. If he checks behind on the turn I think we can c/c any card.

Well that's how I would play it, but I'm of course just still learning. I think it's a tough spot.
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Old 07-18-2008, 08:36 AM   #9
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Re: 50NL: AQo

I think I prefer folding to calling pre tbh. That's may sound nitty, but I'll readily admit I'm not great at playing AQ 4way first to act. This would be my line without reads (since you didn't include any).

Once there's been a bit of history, I'm usually squeezing.

As played, I lead this flop and likely fold to a raise. You're rarely getting AK to fold to a flop c/r, whilst scaring off weaker aces everytime. If no one raises, I'd assume I have the best hand and see what the turn brings.
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Old 07-18-2008, 09:26 AM   #10
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Re: 50NL: AQo

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Originally Posted by Baintz View Post
I think I prefer folding to calling pre tbh. That's may sound nitty, but I'll readily admit I'm not great at playing AQ 4way first to act.
For real? The pot is $6 and you have to call $.075. You can flop lots of monsters and get sick action with it. Being OOP sucks but this is a strong, especially 6-handed.
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Old 07-18-2008, 10:43 AM   #11
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Re: 50NL: AQo

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Originally Posted by ZaneKinetic View Post
For real? The pot is $6 and you have to call $.075. You can flop lots of monsters and get sick action with it. Being OOP sucks but this is a strong, especially 6-handed.
Yeah for real. I'm never folding AQs though obv.

Only because we have zero reads though. There may be a donk in there who thinks A8 is the nuts on that flop, or some dude who auto shoves FDs and I end up folding the best hand. I just don't like putting myself in spots where I can make expensive mistakes when I don't know anything about the other players.

Yes we have a strong hand, but our situation is awful when we flatcall.

We are first to act in a 4way pot with a RIO hand. The ideal scenario where we flop TP, on a dry board against a second best TP just won't happen often enough. We'll mostly be c/f the flop, but there are plenty of situations just like this one where we can easily lose a stack because we know nothing about the other players.


Edit: You said AQ can flop lots of monsters. Apart fromf KJT or AAx or QQx flops, what other monsters are there? Most of the time it will be TP, which I would not call a monster first to act in a 4way pot. Good, but not a monster.
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:20 AM   #12
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Re: 50NL: AQo

I think calling is high variance, but profitable. You'll have to proceed carefully, but I think there's still value. I see fee's reasoning for not squeezing with AQ, so I'd call pf.

I probably donk lead the flop because it makes the hand easier to play and avoids us making mistakes. c/r with TP here seems trouble, I'd rather have air. If he flats, there's really no clear way to proceed because he can easily have AK.

As played seems like a clear fold once he 3b shoves the flop.
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:25 AM   #13
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Re: 50NL: AQo

I squeeze and go from there, AJx flop isn't the best but if your gonna stack off in a 4way-pfr pot might as well make it a 3bet one obv if we're called and miss is the problem with squezzing. If I get 4bet easy muck for me w/o history.
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:35 AM   #14
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Re: 50NL: AQo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baintz View Post
Edit: You said AQ can flop lots of monsters. Apart fromf KJT or AAx or QQx flops, what other monsters are there? Most of the time it will be TP, which I would not call a monster first to act in a 4way pot. Good, but not a monster.
There are real no other monster flops, but you are getting almost 6-1. I know that implied odds/reverse implied odds outweigh imediate odds but those are very good odds. One thing that is going for you is that you sit to the right of the PFR, and when he bets you get to act last. I just don't like folding for such a good prize. Although I would prefer to have 97s then AQo.
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:40 AM   #15
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Re: 50NL: AQo

i#d rather fold than play a 4way pot OOP, just always seem to get in icky spots esp if 3way+ with donks. Pretty much agree with baintz although calling can't be horrible if we tread carefully -but I'm not stacking off as played on the flop. If we call it's to keep the pot smaller ye?
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:57 AM   #16
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Re: 50NL: AQo

To bring in the KQo hand from the other discussion, I feel like calling PF with AQo is a +EV sticky spot, whereas calling KQo on that flop is a -EV sticky spot.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:42 PM   #17
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Re: 50NL: AQo

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Originally Posted by DWarrior View Post
I think calling is high variance, but profitable. You'll have to proceed carefully, but I think there's still value. I see fee's reasoning for not squeezing with AQ, so I'd call pf.

I probably donk lead the flop because it makes the hand easier to play and avoids us making mistakes. c/r with TP here seems trouble, I'd rather have air. If he flats, there's really no clear way to proceed because he can easily have AK.

As played seems like a clear fold once he 3b shoves the flop.
Sounds good.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:46 PM   #18
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Re: 50NL: AQo

I actually like re-raising in this spot, for value. Even though we have a midstrength-value hand and it does not fair well against most TAGs calling ranges, there are two donks in the hand and we are way ahead of their 3bet calling ranges. If anyone 4-bets then it is okay to fold. But for the most part, I expect the PFR to fold and us to be heads up against CO or BTN.

As played on the flop, I like leading out and folding if it gets re-raised by anyone, though I'm not sure if we would have enough equity to get it in.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:51 PM   #19
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Re: 50NL: AQo

Squeeze > fold > call.

I'm not concerned about having to fold to his 4bet range, which is what AA-QQ/AK which are all the hands that crush us and makes playing postflop a lot easier (If he's tricky trappy and can call with AA/KK here I like it less but we're readless)

Calling and playing a big RIO hand out of position 4 way I'm really not a fan of. When we win we're not going to win big but we'll have a really tough time not losing big pots when we're behind.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:58 PM   #20
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Re: 50NL: AQo

How can you think about folding preflop? You're up against 3 other fish who you can get a lot of value from if you both hit the ace.

Of course in this hand it didn't work out so well, but if you proceed carefully and are willing to lay down a made hand this can be a profitable situation. I don't like the check-raise at all as it over represents your hand on board which you really only have A10 or a bluff beat. Remember you're up his UTG raising range so you'd assume he is somewhat strong.

What's nice about $50 NL is that if you check call the flop, check call the turn, a lot of these guys will be scared to value bet the river even if they AK. They'll see a J, 9, etc. on the board and think that their villain might have hit two pair so they check the river. This allows you to play pot control a lot easier than you might think with your top pair Q kicker so there's no reason to lay it down preflop or to get crazy and check-raise. If they follow through with ANOTHER bet on the river then you can probably lay it down to a decent sized bet because rarely will these type of players fire three barrels especially when they're pretty certain you have a pair of aces.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:02 PM   #21
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Re: 50NL: AQo

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Originally Posted by ucla187 View Post
How can you think about folding preflop? You're up against 3 other fish who you can get a lot of value from if you both hit the ace.

Where did it say anything about the other players being fish? OP supplied no reads in the OP.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:18 PM   #22
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Re: 50NL: AQo

seriously what worse hands call our sqeeze in this spot? we are pretty much turning AQ into a bluff in that spot. How do we proceed if our squeeze gets called? there aren't many favorable flop in that spot if you think about villians 3bet calling ranges. not to mention squeeze/fold to a push is soooo bad given that we have AQ (do that with 72)

just call and play poker

as for the hand this insnt really a great spot to get it AI if you c/r you pretty much have to just lead IMO.
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Old 07-18-2008, 03:06 PM   #23
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Re: 50NL: AQo

the checkraise is weird. If he raised with good aces, he's beating with AK, AJ, A9... ties with AQ.

You'll make him fold a weak ace. But if the money goes in you're probably usually far behind.

I also like the squeeze. Though I sometimes call here too. I prefer either lead the flop or check/call.
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Old 07-18-2008, 03:11 PM   #24
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Re: 50NL: AQo

I dont like the call to his all in. Your treating your TP2K like the nuts in a 3 way raised preflop pot and that just seems too loose.
If you had squeezed i think you would have a much better say on his range, but as it is, i think your drawing pretty weak if not dead. Villain could easily have a set, top two, TPTK and the shove is a really really strong move at these stakes so i would fold behind on the flop here.
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Old 07-18-2008, 03:59 PM   #25
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Re: 50NL: AQo

Nice debate here. It's a tricky spot.

I think the consensus is (consensus as in what to do after we have called, don't see any consensus as on whether to fold/3bet/call) , that c/r or c/rai on this flop is really not that good since we are not often ahead and mostly behind on this flop. Wouldn't a line like c/c, and c/rai on a safe/blank turn card but c/f on a scare card be best here?
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