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Old 09-28-2019, 12:06 PM   #1
BFRANCIS
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Spade 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

5/10NL 500-NO MAX
Main game was full so we opened up the must move and were playing 8 handed
this is the second hand dealt at the table.
I played with this guy once before a while ago, older rec, loose passive who over-vaules his one pair holdings.
2500 effective in this hand.

Villain(3k) UTG+2 opens to 35
HJ/CUTOFF/BUTTON call and Hero(2500) calls in small blind calls with 78
BB comes along as well

pot-210

Flop
942
I check to pre flop raiser who bets 200
folds around I debate a check raise but decide to flat and take a turn.

pot-610


Turn K

I check and villain bets 200 again.
not loving the turn at all but I call.

River is complete brick 6
check to villain who bets over pot $800

hero?
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:49 PM   #2
I_NUK3D_U
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Fold
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Old 10-02-2019, 03:38 PM   #3
FreakDaddy
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Seems like a pretty straight forward fold, especially starting out MW on the flop.
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Old 10-03-2019, 10:14 AM   #4
DannyAIC
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFRANCIS View Post
5/10NL 500-NO MAX
Main game was full so we opened up the must move and were playing 8 handed
this is the second hand dealt at the table.
I played with this guy once before a while ago, older rec, loose passive who over-vaules his one pair holdings.
2500 effective in this hand.

Villain(3k) UTG+2 opens to 35
HJ/CUTOFF/BUTTON call and Hero(2500) calls in small blind calls with 78
BB comes along as well

pot-210

Flop
942
I check to pre flop raiser who bets 200
folds around I debate a check raise but decide to flat and take a turn.

pot-610


Turn K

I check and villain bets 200 again.
not loving the turn at all but I call.

River is complete brick 6
check to villain who bets over pot $800

hero?
From your description, it doesn't seem like V is savvy enough to be trying to push you off a weak flush with something like a set, or a weaker flush. But that's what the betting looks like to me.

Flop: why is he betting so much if he has the nuts, or Pair+Ace of spades?
Turn: Why isnt he betting more?
River: Back to the pot bet. Only here, does the nut flush make complete sense. He's seen you call him down on two streets, one of which had four spades on it.

He definitely has a lot more spades than sets for sure. I'd lean towards a fold likely, but the line seems pretty weird to me.

EDIT: Just saw that he's passive. If he really is passive, this is likely not a bluff, and just a strange line. fold.
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Old 10-03-2019, 02:46 PM   #5
BFRANCIS
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
From your description, it doesn't seem like V is savvy enough to be trying to push you off a weak flush with something like a set, or a weaker flush. But that's what the betting looks like to me.

Flop: why is he betting so much if he has the nuts, or Pair+Ace of spades?
Turn: Why isnt he betting more?
River: Back to the pot bet. Only here, does the nut flush make complete sense. He's seen you call him down on two streets, one of which had four spades on it.

He definitely has a lot more spades than sets for sure. I'd lean towards a fold likely, but the line seems pretty weird to me.

EDIT: Just saw that he's passive. If he really is passive, this is likely not a bluff, and just a strange line. fold.



The line seemed super weird to me, I have not played with this gentlemen a whole lot but when I did I never saw him 3bet/4bet, but he would call very wide from a UTG +1/2 open and limp a lot from MP. The 200$ on the turn almost seemed like a blocker bet and It seemed like he was scared of the fourth for a few reasons, but on the river he was trying to rep nut spades.

I tanked called the river, he mucked his hand after asking "do you have a spade?"

but I believe that call is -EV long run.
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Old 10-04-2019, 12:48 PM   #6
DannyAIC
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFRANCIS View Post
The line seemed super weird to me, I have not played with this gentlemen a whole lot but when I did I never saw him 3bet/4bet, but he would call very wide from a UTG +1/2 open and limp a lot from MP. The 200$ on the turn almost seemed like a blocker bet and It seemed like he was scared of the fourth for a few reasons, but on the river he was trying to rep nut spades.

I tanked called the river, he mucked his hand after asking "do you have a spade?"

but I believe that call is -EV long run.
Three things:

One, nice call.
Two, even passive people go crazy once in a while
Three, where does this guy play?
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:27 AM   #7
BFRANCIS
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

thank you.

MGM springfield/encore boston
5/10 NL runs on thursdays/tues/fri and saturday
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:23 AM   #8
Manko898
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Starting stacks are deep, SPR ~11, and your opponent who was described as a recreational player who over values one pair hands just led the flop into five other players for a near pot size bet so I definitely prefer a flop check-raise, especially considering our hand has some vulnerability to being drawn out by higher 1 card flushes.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:43 AM   #9
Manko898
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

What range of hands do you get to the river with? Where do you think an eight high flush is at in your distribution?

Bet size: 9/5
Odds Laid: 5:9
RFE: 9/14, 64%
MDF: 5/14, 36%
Odds Offered: 14:5>>2.8:1
RE: 5/19, 26%

Your opponent needs to be betting with a worse hand a little bit more than one in four times and you need to be defending with the top 36% of your distribution.
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Old 10-27-2019, 05:59 PM   #10
LtUaE42
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Is there a reason you didn't squeeze pre-flop to like $250?
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:07 PM   #11
Scott7x
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

You forgot to add the turn bets to the potsize on the river.
Pot is 1k on the river not 600, right?
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:02 PM   #12
Len$$$
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

I live in the Boston area, any interest in studying/playing at some point?
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Old 11-04-2019, 09:39 PM   #13
hyperknit
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

"I played with this guy once before a while ago, older rec, loose passive"

fold

also i like to x/r the flop theres lots of value and protection to be had and im happy to take this all the way on a clean run out
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Old 11-07-2019, 03:31 PM   #14
The Standard Station
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Why not raise flop? I guess I don't know your image, but unless you're a super nit we should be raising here and getting the money in now while the board isn't complete ****. Theres so many bad turns in the deck that either are going to stifle their action bc their hand now is super weak, or like this turn is going to make your hand utter trash. Get some more b's in, take the power and control in the hand, fold out a ton of equity, and use this hand to balance all the times we aren't raising a made hand on the flop, but would like to. This simply isn't the time to trap. It does no good for your hand as we need to protect/get blinds in for value , for the action on future streets, or for your image. I also think we could mix this hand pre and 3b.
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Old 11-18-2019, 07:15 PM   #15
abouzouz
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Perfect hand to 3 bet pre ) 250
Flop ch/r as played because he is gonna often check back turn and hard to play oop ; u wanna build the pot with your strong hands oop.
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Old 11-18-2019, 07:59 PM   #16
Scott7x
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtUaE42 View Post
Is there a reason you didn't squeeze pre-flop to like $250?
Quote:
Originally Posted by abouzouz View Post
Perfect hand to 3 bet pre ) 250
Way to loose, 78s not the hand you want to squeeze here 350bbs deep (or even 100bbs deep). Squeezing 78s 100% is way overdoing it, if you do this you're probably squeezing well over 10% which is not necessary at all. Especially after OP said V is a loose passive fish.

Just mostly fold preflop imo, I don't think calling pot size open from SB is going to be profitable here unless the cutoff and button are big fish too.
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Old 11-22-2019, 09:28 AM   #17
abouzouz
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott7x View Post
Way to loose, 78s not the hand you want to squeeze here 350bbs deep (or even 100bbs deep). Squeezing 78s 100% is way overdoing it, if you do this you're probably squeezing well over 10% which is not necessary at all. Especially after OP said V is a loose passive fish.

Just mostly fold preflop imo, I don't think calling pot size open from SB is going to be profitable here unless the cutoff and button are big fish too.

People in live dont adapt well and they dont know much about 3 bet frequency ; especially on 5/10...

Folding is way too nitty even if it was a reg game ; call or 3 bet has way more EV..
I will 3 bet more often if BB/straddle squeeze a lot and call mostly if passive players after me ...
But for sure with some frequency you wanna 3 bet this hand))
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Old 01-02-2020, 06:36 PM   #18
cry_me_a_river
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Would you consider check/raising on the flop? If you raise light (make it 400-450 total), and your opponent has a set or hasn't hit his flush, it'd be tough for him to continue because you're not giving him the right odds to call. If he does wind up making the call, you almost certainly know you're beat on the turn.

The way I think of it is if you check/call, you're investing 200 on the flop, then investing at the bare minimum another 200+ when you face the following turn/river bit. So you're investing at least 400 throughout the entire hand if you check/call the flop (unless you're nitty and fold to the turn bet...)

On the other hand, if you check/raise, you're going to be investing about the same amount, but with the added chance of getting your opponent to fold his hand. If he does call the re-raise and a shitty card like the Ks comes on the turn or river, you might be able to get to showdown if your opponent has a set or non-nutted flush, and if your opponent shows aggression post-turn, folding is easier because you're probably beat a large majority of the time.

I wouldn't check/raise this specific situation every single time, but it's definitely a move to consider on occasion depending on the type of player you're against.

The other option is maybe fold pre. It's not always a great idea to see a raised 4-way flop in the SB with 78s. You only have 1 more turn to wait before it's your button
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:44 PM   #19
Unsporting
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Doubt he folds to a x/r when he bombs flop into everyone. X/r and obv call off if he jams. Get your money in with effectively what is the nuts and let him make bad calls, thinking ‘what if he just folds’ is costing you value.

River is a clear fold
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:04 AM   #20
rainbow57
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

I think flop is a check call actually. Large sizing from UTG+2 too. It seems better to check raise turn (had it not been the K).

River I probably fold given the description. His line seems quite suspicious, but given the info we have on V I wouldnt think its enough to swing it to a call.
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Old 01-04-2020, 03:10 AM   #21
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

I would be likely to check-raise this flop for protection and value. Betting into a 5 way flop is so strong but really how strong can this villain type be here. Yes he could have some combinations of broadway spades but he's going to have so many more combos of TT-AA with a spade which we put into a really awkward spot with a checkraise. If we can get him to stack off on the flop with an overpair with a spade when six spades are removed from the deck it's a really good spot for us.

I don't mind a squeeze pre but I would much rather squeeze this hand from the button than from the small blind. I would much rather squeeze a hand like AJo from the small blind here, which plays poorly in multiway pots but good hu, vs a hand like 78s which plays well in multiway pots. In general this hand will be fairly easy to play postflop in a multiway pot and we shouldn't have trouble realizing our equity even out of position because on textures that we like we should have the range advantage calling out of the small blind. I'm going to assume that in this game this situation of 3.5x open and then it goes 3 to 5 handed to the flop is fairly common. If we start squeezing this light out of the small blind every time this situation comes up we're going to be playing way too aggressive out of position and quickly become unprofitable.

I would only ever fold pre if there is a player in the BB who loves to squeeze, and even then there is going to be a situation where we could flat the squeeze closing the action with a lot of dead money in the pot with a hand that is easy to play post.

As played I would have folded, but nice call, although I would agree with you that in the long run this call is probably lighting money on fire, although vs a weak opponent if you have a read that they've made a mistake in the hand and now they're trying to buy their way out of it the call is fine.

Both the flop and turn bet are very weird, if I had to put him on an exact hand taking the results and all information into consideration I'd say he had two red kings, made a blocker bet on the turn to prevent getting led into on the river since we're going to have very few As combinations from the small blind, and then turned top set into an overbet bluff on the river which is actually a really gangster move but good on you for feeling it out and winning the pot with the 8s here.

Last edited by ProRailbird; 01-04-2020 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 01-06-2020, 12:28 AM   #22
dylance
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

I think your hand gets much more value c/r'ing flop from hands like overpairs/sets/fd's than taking the line you took. Things do get a bit awkward when stacks are deep and you're oop with a small flush, especially vs a tough/solid opponent, but still think check raise is fine in this spot.

If you're not check raising this hand then what is your check raising range on a flop like this?

It's good to have a check raising range on monotone flops that includes bluffs and value hands. You'll be a much more feared player and will have an easier time getting paid off with your value hands and should still be +EV on your bluffs if you pick your spots well. If bluffs never work, then congrats, you're in a great game, only raise for value.

What was your plan to get value from your hand if the board ran out clean?

Generally speaking, I don't view the turn bet as a blocker bet, its more a ,"I have the nuts and want action" bet and river is something like, "he must have a spade, time to get paid!!" But you were there and know the player so nice call down.
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Old 01-13-2020, 03:02 PM   #23
markdirt
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

lead flop large, ez game

as played fold river, can fold turn depending on how passive villain really is
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Old 01-22-2020, 11:18 PM   #24
TheGodson
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Yeah, fold. Loose passive players bluff once in a while, but usually not often.
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Old 01-24-2020, 02:20 PM   #25
Donkeybets
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Re: 5/10 NL UGLY TURN CARD

Even if you give villain all sets and AA combos, you only have 36% Equity , its a fold.
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