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[LOW] 4 Handed Getting OOL

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10-16-2021 , 04:28 PM

#26

0NoobiePoker0

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Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguyhere

You have it set up for 50BB stacks

Click the drop down where it says NL50.General.50 and you can change to 100BB from there.

Thank you kind sir, got it now, much appreciated!

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10-16-2021 , 07:18 PM

#27

dude45

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Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 2,802

I think the play is fine with a SB 3betting range but not sure about doing it with DOODOO'S exact hand

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10-16-2021 , 08:05 PM

#28

dude45

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Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 2,802

solved it and solver actually likes a triple barrel with 8c8h at least some of the time but is never betting that small on turn or river. On the turn its leading for pot around 62% of the time. also betting big on river. so basically go big or go home. Solver doesn't like those little rinkydink bets. I'll resolve and give option for OB on turn

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10-16-2021 , 09:08 PM

#29

JohnRusty

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Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 2,755

sure you can get a solver to say this is fine

nit boy approves, though it seems non-intuitive

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10-17-2021 , 02:35 AM

#30

dude45

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Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 2,802

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRusty

sure you can get a solver to say this is fine

nit boy approves, though it seems non-intuitive

well i wasnt trying to make or manipulate the solver the solver say anything. What are you saying is non intuitive ? Also i kinda assumed you were addressing me as your post is directly below mine but you didn't actually quote my post so my bad if you were talking to DOODOO Anyway my general takeaway is that Doodoo's DB was fine but his small sizing is MEH assuming he isn't a poker genius that can balance a sizing that is rarely used

Last edited by dude45; 10-17-2021 at 02:48 AM.

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10-17-2021 , 03:02 AM

#31

dude45

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Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 2,802

oh yea the reason i would shy away from such a small turn sizing is you aren't getting any better hands to fold and the only worse hands continuing are draws and some of those are raising which forces all combos of 8s to fold. All UPs for that matter. Now if you bet 1/2 pot or more suddenly you get a lot more folds.99 JJ and QQ are folding 100 percent of the time some wired kings are also folding.

TLDR version DBing 8s here is a bluff and you want to bet big enough that IP will start to fold some of the hands that beat you. You can never really value bet with DOODOO's hand as not enough worse hands call.

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10-17-2021 , 04:44 AM

#32

Unguarded

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Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,731

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

They would for sure. But this seems like an underbluffed river spot

I didn't read every post, so someone may have already mentioned this. But 88 is probably better than JJ/QQ since QQ and JJ block the hands we are targeting on the river such as AQ, AJ, KQ, etc.

I like the bluff. The 8c is decent since people sometimes call 98s/87s even if they shouldn't. I would have gone bigger on the turn, but you may feel like setting up a huge river bet is more effective since you do these things a lot more than I do. It does make sense to face villain with a huge bet when he wants to puke the hardest, but I also worry that he may view the small turn bet as a sizing tell.

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10-17-2021 , 09:45 AM

#33

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,539

Thanks for the replies.

wrt to turn sizing. I did go smaller in game since I started a little shallower than normal but I can see going bigger too.

One benefit from going smaller though is his range is weaker than normal by the river.

It was a sizing tell from me though so I need to be careful about that in the future, in retrospect I think a little bigger is better.

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10-17-2021 , 12:28 PM

#34

JohnRusty

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dude45

Wasn’t referring to your post in particular. I say “sure you can get a solver to say this is fine” pretty often because solver outputs are highly dependent on assumptions about preflop ranges, the game tree, etc.

There’s a good quote from Ike Haxton on one of Joe ingram’s podcasts where he says “PLO is a game of equities, hold em is a game of frequencies.” Meaning that what’s important in Holdem is recognizing how often we should be doing things with our range, and it’s not the end of the world if we don’t bluff the exact combo the solver says

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10-18-2021 , 12:32 PM

#35

BobbyPeru

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Consider my head explode moment reviewing hands this morning.

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10-18-2021 , 12:41 PM

#36

DooDooPoker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyPeru

Consider my head explode moment reviewing hands this morning.

lol

woops

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10-18-2021 , 12:46 PM

#37

BobbyPeru

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Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 2,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

No clue why I only have 92BB here - reload didn't go through.

This is why.

You had 74ss. 88 hand was the very next hand.

Great bluff.

I tip my cap.

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10-18-2021 , 12:55 PM

#38

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyPeru

This is why.

You had 74ss. 88 hand was the very next hand.

Great bluff.

I tip my cap.

Oh okay cool. Thanks BP

Tough spot for you - I like your fold against population.

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10-18-2021 , 01:06 PM

#39

BobbyPeru

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Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 2,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Oh okay cool. Thanks BP

Tough spot for you - I like your fold against population.

It was. I'd like to think if the river is non club or if I had a club in my hand I would call. But then again maybe you don't follow through on non club rivers.

Funny how we used to battle at 10blitz now we are battling at 10x the stakes. Next stop 1knl :P

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10-18-2021 , 01:10 PM

#40

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyPeru

Yeah I'm not sure if I still bluff on non club rivers. It seems pretty close.

Lets get it! Two 1knl end bosses coming soon

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10-19-2021 , 02:01 AM

#41

buggits30

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Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,181

Didn't read the other posts, but this seems like nonsense to me. Ran it and 88 just pure give up turn. Small sizing ott also not great.

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10-19-2021 , 04:12 AM

#42

Unguarded

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Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,731

That is so hilarious that BobbyPeru found out he was villain in this hand! What a coincidence... the hand happened against a regular poster AND said regular poster happened to play through the hand in his studies. This is now my favorite thread since I started posting here a few months ago.

I think I would have folded AQ as well. There just aren't enough regs who play like DooDooPoker to make it worth calling imo.

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10-19-2021 , 08:20 AM

#43

BobbyPeru

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Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 2,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unguarded

Haha yeah I remember watching the replay of the OP and thinking I can't believe V folded AQ and yesterday I was struggling to do some study so I finally forced myself to sit at the PC and I pulled up the session from 10/13, checked my marked hands, went over this hand and then searched it up in Bovada to see the hole cards and when I saw 88 with a club I said "uhhh wait a goddamn minute! DOO DOO!!!"

So yeah was a pretty funny experience. Props to DDP.

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10-19-2021 , 10:26 AM

#44

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by buggits30

Didn't read the other posts, but this seems like nonsense to me. Ran it and 88 just pure give up turn. Small sizing ott also not great.

If you pure give up OTT you have no bluffs on 4 straight broadway rivers.

Can you post your sim?

I want to see the EV difference between betting and checking OTT.

I ran it in GTO wizard and it seemed fine. We also get to be more aggro since it is 4 handed

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10-19-2021 , 10:33 AM

#45

Ceres

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Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 3,038

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unguarded

What a coincidence... the hand happened against a regular poster AND said regular poster happened to play through the hand in his studies.

Or from another angle, depressing.

No offence, I don't want to play against 2+2

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10-19-2021 , 01:17 PM

#46

buggits30

adept

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,181

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

If you pure give up OTT you have no bluffs on 4 straight broadway rivers.

Which is fine with 88 since it has **** blockers in that scenario, also has bad blockers ott which is why its a give up.

I deleted the sim last night but it was about a .5-1 bb mistake to bet turn if i recall. Which I wouldn't consider to be a blunder by any means but def isn't something I would want to do.

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10-19-2021 , 02:56 PM

#47

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by buggits30

We must have different sims then. I'm going off GTO Wizard.

There are no hands with straight blockers on a 4 straight that aren't 2 pair. You need hands like 88/99 OTT so when the 4th broadway comes in OTR you have some bluffs, because 2 pair has too much SDV to turn into a bluff.

I have turn as mixed.

Last edited by DooDooPoker; 10-19-2021 at 03:04 PM.

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10-19-2021 , 04:16 PM

#48

newguyhere

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 7,137

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Are you using UTG or CO as villain's range?

I solved this in GTO Wizard when you first posted the hand, and I used UTG. In that solve, I'm pretty sure that turn was mixed and river was always a shove.

However, I think we should use CO as villain's range. So I resolved, and now it's pretty much always checking this combo on the turn.

Also, I agree on needing bluffs on those 4 straight boards, so 99 and under are good. What I found interesting, however, is that the solver is never shoving those hands. It prefers either 10% or 35% on the river.

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10-19-2021 , 05:53 PM

#49

DooDooPoker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by newguyhere

Interesting river node.

Does it give you the EV difference between having a shoving range and having a half pot range? I assume there isn't a big difference.