Villain is 25/0 after 4 hands...


What sizing is generally considered standard facing 4x opens?

Is this line ok vs the donk? villain can have plenty of pair + draws in his raise.. I felt that shipping flop was ok?

What line do you guys take if villain checks to us?

On a side note - i tend to open 2.5x and go 2 - 2.5x when i 4bet.. But i have been encountering 3bets to say 5-6bb.. When i 4bet to 15 for instance it just seems too low, and i guess a smaller 4bet will encourage villains to continue with a range that is diluted with more speculative hands due to the raise size, which i'm onviously ok with especially in position.. What are your thoughts about 4bet sizes facing these small 3bets?

Thanks in advance

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 200.5 BB
SB: 99 BB
BB: 51 BB
UTG: 259.5 BB
MP: 109 BB
Hero (CO): 116.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

fold, MP raises to 4 BB, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 7 BB

Flop: (23.5 BB, 2 players) 8 J 9
MP bets 22.5 BB, Hero raises to 105.5 BB and is all-in, MP calls 75.5 BB and is all-in

I've been wondering what's standard vs. this too. I've seen a lot of 3.5x lately and its annoying. I've just been going 3x IP and 4x OOP like usual but tightening up my 3bet ranges a bit.

I asked a similar question in another thread and was told to 4bet to at least a size that will give Vil poor implied odds to call and whatever you think he'll call on top of that. I think I read somewhere once that vs a smaller 3bet, you should 4bet to around the size you would have 4bet to had Villain raised to a more standard 3bet size. Not sure if that's right but it kind of makes sense.

Regarding the hand, large donks are tough to deal with without a read. I've seen this situation be the nuts, a draw, 2nd pair, you name it. I'm inclined to just call and see what happens, but in 2nl, you'll probably get called more by draws so jamming might be ok.

If we're going to fold donk shoves then this is the board for it. As Whizzleteats said though, this could also reasonably be some aggro donk jamboree.

In these spots I tend to check how my mental health is doing. If it can't handle villain showing J9s here I just fold and feel ok about it. This is kind of a donk shove given spr will be narrow and we can expect a jam on most turns.

Yeah i've noticed a lot of 3.5x and 4x opens just lately too.. it's weird as we inflate the pot more especially by the turn..


I'll need to spend some time trying to find the answers as it's a very common occurance.

1) I think a 4b to 11bb after a 4bb is a fine default. Given our target is likely a weaker player, we could probably exploitatively size up with a hand like KK but not a big deal

2) Lots of conflicting theory about 4bet sizes, especially for IP v OOP sizing. 2.2x has been the conventional wisdom for a while. Also tend to size down in cold 4b situations. Might have changed recently. Personally, would rarely go lower than 19bb unless facing one of these ridiculous 3.8bb 3bets we increasingly see

3) I like the shove. Regardless of prior reads, his play in this hand seems fishy. It’s not a fist pump play but I don’t want to see more cards and I think we are ahead enough

I usually 3-bet a pot sized raise IP and something bigger than pot OOP.

I 4-bet pot up to 24% of my stack, position insensitive. The idea being implied odds are not a major consideration at this point but strategically a raise size that commits you to call an all-in while giving the other play a flat call option is dominated by just going all-in yourself.

No idea how sound any of this is.

I think its an interesting topic, and when things deviate from the norm is forces us to think and understand why we are doing what we do as opposed to having standard sizes ..